German Armour What If?

[Saxondog]

My Tiger S13 in Battle for the First Time in Russia,new tanks,new crews,first engagement,Tank Height considered. below is a battle report of this action. The Germans were fresh new crews, Grossdeutschland s first Heavy Tank Battalion,and their first battle. Just read the report,enough said.

The period 7 - 19 March 1943 was described in Germany's Tiger Tanks by Thomas Jentz. During this period GD's Tigers saw action in the Poltawa-Belgorad area, beginning at 0615 on 7 March. There was reason to be optimistic; Tiger crews reported first round hits at ranges of 600 to 1000 metres with frontal penetration of T-34 tanks, with these penetrations even resulting in the destruction of the engine at the rear of the tank. It was found that few T-34s were made to burn when hit from the front, but in 4 of 5 instances of shots from the same ranges striking the hull side of the T-34, towards the rear, or actually hitting the rear of the tank itself, the fuel tanks were made to explode. A report indicated that " Even at ranges of 1500 meters and longer, during favorable weather, it is possible to succeed in penetrating the T-34 with minimal expenditure of ammunition."

Another report by GD Tigers told of a scout patrol by two Tigers encountering 20 Russian tanks to their front, with other tanks attacking from their rear. Both Tigers were hit at least 10 times by Russian armour piercing shells mostly of 76.2 mm size, at ranges of 500 - 1000 metres. No penetrations were achieved on the Tigers, and even hits on the Tiger's running gear that tore away suspension arms did not prove to be immobilizing. The two Tigers managed to knock out 10 enemy tanks within fifteen minutes.

During March, the Tigers knocked out over 40 Russian vehicles without suffering a single combat loss.

My Love and Admiration of German Armor,and the exceptional quality of their designs support my view.They were the most functional,steady gun platforms of any nation. Their major weakness was numbers,10-1 odds consistently will wear down even the best fighting spirit.


Many Model SS Units,they do seem to be the most available to model as far as decals and paintwork ,yet I chose GROSSDEUTSCHLAND because they were the true elite German Force,made up from the regular German male population,with a deep rooted love of country. They fought hard for their country,families and futures. To me their betrayal at the end by the allies was just wrong. Many who fought so professionally would die a bitter death in Russian Gulags,starvation and disease their only reward for being professional fighting men.

http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/overview.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[The Tank Man]

If you have a very small amount of hull showing then I would of thought that the tank would of been Easyer to take out as a hit to the wheels or tracks and the tank is dead! Plus a few feet lower won't make much difference in the tank geting hit as you just lower your aim to hit it! And! With the German tigers they could of been 30 feet tall with the firing range they had back then the enemy would be out of range to even touch it!!!!! To me having just wheels and tracks showing makes it a lot Easyer to take out the tank!

[mustclime]

If you have a little time to burn...look through this thread....

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&t=173857" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

take note on where the kill shots were.

[Saxondog]

This is the proof of your view that the height was the reason these tanks were destroyed,yet many were captured and put into service for the allies. I'm not clear that the issue of vulnerability is really enforced by this thread as the allied use of the panther has to have some appeal. And clearly the appeal is the strength of the design.

If numbers are the issue,the allies lost many more tanks than the Germans ever produced,it is purely a war of attrition,and the allies were able to overwhelm the Germans with numbers.Both in Sherman's and T34/85. What they were unable to do was beat the Germans with quality,it is simply quantity,both in Armor and certainly in Production ability.

Yet clearly the hit issue also depends on where,what,distance,gun power,velocity,and the fact that these dead Panther's were shot by what?

But to be fair,a higher profile would be easier to hit,and the object of visible mass comes into play.They fired at what they could see,and center of mass.

[The Tank Man]

I totally Agee with sax there! Plus a lot of german tanks were abandoned and used as target practice so some of the pics of big damage would be from close range target practice and not hits from a distance when the tank was fully maned! And a lot of the pics were near the end of the war when Germany was running out of fuel and resources ! I wonder how many tanks it took to take out each panther that wasn't abandoned!

[The Tank Man]

I totally Agee with sax there! Plus a lot of german tanks were abandoned and used as target practice so some of the pics of big damage would be from close range target practice and not hits from a distance when the tank was fully maned! And a lot of the pics were near the end of the war when Germany was running out of fuel and resources ! I wonder how many tanks it took to take out each panther that wasn't abandoned!

[Saxondog]

Maybe not 100%accurate, but divide the number of lost Sherman's/T34/85 into the number of German tanks produced,Panthers Tigers,and King Tigers. But just as an example.

http://www.alanhamby.com/losses.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And the highest kill ratio of all German Army Tiger Tank forces goes to: Grossdeutschland


The GD Tiger unit, from its inception as the 13th company, through its expansion to regimental status and to its eventual destruction in March 1945, had the highest confirmed tally of enemy kills for any Army Tiger unit, with 1036 tanks and armoured fighting vehicles claimed, and over 300 enemy guns.

http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/tigers.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Saxondog]

As a comparison, this chart shows AFV losses, all causes, by year on the Eastern Front: EASTERN FRONT ONLY!

Year German Losses Russian Losses Kill/Loss Ratio

1941 2,758 20,500 7.43

1942 2,648 15,000 5.66

1943 6,362 22,400 3.52

1944 6,434 16,900 2.63

1945 7,382 8,700 1.18

Total 25,584 83,500 3.26

[Saxondog]

Sources for kill/lose ratio and overall numbers
http://www.alanhamby.com/losses.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tigers in Combat I by Wolfgang Schneider.
Tigers in Combat II by Wolfgang Schneider.
Red Army Handbook by Steve Zaloga.

[Saxondog]

Perhaps this thread,should be started in another topic,clearly we have opened another debate and issue. I certainly would enjoy any discussion about the Eastern Front tank battles,especially as it relates to Grossdeutschland's activities.

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