German Armour What If?

[FreakyDude]

I want to scratch build something and I thought I would ask What if?
Scenario May 1944
You have lots of resources and engineering, You know what your enemies are building up to Dec 1945.
You are aware of the short comings of your current Armour and it's benefits.
What do you do? Fix what is broken or re-engineer a new tank.
I see a gaping hole in German Armour and argueably what cost them the war. Germany had issues with production.Instead of the building the best heavies, what if Germany went with an easily produced 35 to 50 tonne medium/heavy tank.
which engine, suspension systems would you choose? Why?
which Gun? the 88 or would you go with a 75? why?
Armour how thick? would you sacrifice speed for strength?
Durability and in field Repair were areas of improvement as well.
Lets assume we are not being bombed into oblivion and we have one mfg center where we can make, test and produce our dream tank.
Opinions please, I'll build it if your opinions come.

[Dietrich]

DRAT.......I have just spent about an hour composing a reply to this....and I closed the wrong flippin window and it has all gone

So in abreviated form...Move back in time to say 1943 instead of 1944.........Germany concentrates on continuing developing the new weapons rather than calling a halt due to the success of the 'BlitzKrieg'...So we have the ME-262 for air superiority together with guided bombs....so NO bombing of factories...Nerve gases GA ( TABUN) 1936 and GB ( SARIN ) 1939...for use in bombs and long range artillery shells...so we also have some time and SPACE on the battlefield...as it is occupied only by hordes of dead soviet soldiers
NOW ......Russia produced about 85,000 tanks USA 50,000 M4 Sherman and derivatives and the UK about 30,000 (Apparently !! but all unreliable or underguned and too late in the 'Tank Arms race' in my opinion ) ( I shall brace myself for a broadside over THAT comment
I hate to quote the commie scum bag stalin but he said something like 'Quantity has a Quality of its own'....and THAT is what Germany NEEDED...NUMBERS.......SO get the women in the factories....every other country did......... and lets get on with making this tank

50 /60 Ton, Medium tank so as to be fast, reliable and easy to transport and recover....... like a small BUT LESS COMPLICATED and easily MASS PRODUCED Panther equipped with the panther 75mm or the Glorious Tiger 88mm..probably the 75mm as it is smaller and so easier to fit in a smaller tank..... There was also the 75mm KwK 42 L/100 gun !
(.although there is an ultimate lose of traction.).REAR ENGINED AND REAR SPROCKET DRIVE...try to make the engine AND gearbox as a single unit so that they can be removed easily for maintenance or replacement.
Most Importantly would of course have been the ' VAMPYR ' infra red night fighting equipement...which should have been fitted to ALL of the new tanks and its support vehicles, so to allow a new 'Night-Time' based form of tank assaults, supported by infantry also equipped with infra-red capabilities.
The picture of the failed Daimler Benz Panzer the VK3002DB is probably a good starting point, for the new design.

vk3002db.jpg (19.39 KiB) Viewed 5259 times

.....AND of course.....
.........................You can pick a few ideas from the 'Planned German Panzers' the ...
E-50 50 tons,,,Panther 75 mm or Tiger1 88mm gun or a new 75mm PaK made by Krupps and Skoda..

E-50-01.jpg (17.99 KiB) Viewed 5259 times

E-50-02.jpg (15.22 KiB) Viewed 5259 times

and the two small light tank destroyers....
E-10 10tons ( but combat weight nearer 16 tons)

e10.jpg (21.33 KiB) Viewed 5259 times

E-25 25 tons

e25.jpg (25.5 KiB) Viewed 5259 times

01a.jpg (45.32 KiB) Viewed 5259 times

Is any of this of any use for a possible scratch-build ..........
I am currently stalled ( Working on my Motorbike instead) on MY 'What-If' Tiger based on this thread.....
http://www.rctankwarfare.co.uk/forums/v ... f=1&t=7929" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Pictures of his Tiger 1 are at the end of the article which has a part 1 here
http://www.rctankwarfare.co.uk/forums/v ... f=1&t=7928" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and if you have not read them I think that they are a 'Gripping-Story' and well worth reading in the correct order of 7928 and then 7929
Alb.

[FreakyDude]

Dietrich
love the info on the posts. I think all the paper panzers are or have been built, no use flogging a dead horse.
Now I haven't seen the VK3002DB.I found a Porsche design that was similiar and based on the T-34 ( could be the same tank) I would go with the diesel as well for obvious reasons.
The 75mm is probably the best choice as well. I am going to start researching the Vampyre system as this relativly new to me and exactly what I want to do. Something different.
I decided today to make the hull out of Aluminum and the upper out of sheet styrene. Going to cast some of the detail parts in resin as well. Winters are long and cold in Canada and I'll need something to do on those really nasty nights.
Cheers

[Dietrich]

Hi Freakydude,
Here are all the pictures that I have of the > VAMPYR < infra-red system. The Panzers would be equipped with their own 'Search-light' good for about 600 Metres of visibility, but one of the support vehicles would have been a half-track equipped with a massive light to increase visibility to well over 1000 Metres. The lighting system and the gun sights were linked to the main gun elevation , so that the gun could be used in a 'Normal' way.
I have also included drawing of a German soldier equipped with a 'Man-Portable' system so that the assaults could be supported by infantry.
I believe that the Germans also carried out field tests with an armoured rear deck/ armoured open topped box, fitted to the Panzers, so that the infantry could actually ride ' With the Panzers ' and so supply direct support....it would also allow them to 'keep up' with the pace of the advance and to hopefully NOT get run over by the Panzers !
I hope that these photos and drawings are of help to you.
ALB

pan810.jpg (15.88 KiB) Viewed 5241 times

[mcevoyi]

UMM

how about thsi the leopard ?

[mustclime]

lol, I have been thinking about the same thing...I am not looking to scratch biuld them though. For the e50/e75. you can use the hl king tiger, the major differance on the hull was the 60 degree front armor and the suspnsion. The front armor is easy, The suspension is a little tougher but I think I have it figured out. The suspension was supose to be 6 boogies(3 per side) and 2 arms and wheels per boogie. I was just going to shape 6 plates with bolt through them for the bogies and mount shortened hl arms and the kt springs to them...the e50 was supose to use the kt wheels and tracks, so thats what I would use....for the turret, I picked up a 1:35th scale e50 kit from trumpitear and used their turret to to mock up my own( using the 2.1 number to convert mesuerments). One issue I see is you will not be able to use the hl stuff in the turret, dam thing is small compaired to the kt. I will have to look at the hl panther or go to tamie for that.

For the VK3002DB, just pickup a wsn t34 and a hl panther. Slab side the armor, pull off the hl panther suspension, tracks and guts and slap it on/in the t34 hull....the turret can be a modified panther turret as both compenies bidding on the contrack were subing out the turret to the same place..... i have my winter biulding all planed out...lol

[mcevoyi]

hi there
nice thought .. but the road wheels on all the E series armour are 1 meter diameter or 64mm
the king tiger wheeks are almost 10mm too small

http://www.rctankwarfare.co.uk/forums/v ... f=1&t=8096" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

iain

[mustclime]

hi there
nice thought .. but the road wheels on all the E series armour are 1 meter diameter or 64mm
the king tiger wheeks are almost 10mm too small

http://www.rctankwarfare.co.uk/forums/v ... f=1&t=8096" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

iain

that was for the e10, not the e50/e75


http://fingolfen.tripod.com/eseries/e50.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It was decided that torsion bars were difficult and costly to make, and as the larger factories were getting bombed round the clock something was needed that could be simple enough to hand to small engineering concerns to fabricate under sub- contract. The new bogie carried 800mm steel rimmed "rubber saving" wheels from the Tiger II. This type of wheel is often refered to as "silent bloc". (A similar design was also seen on the late Jagdpanzer IV chassis, albeit a much smaller size. Also Spielberger vol 9: Der PzKfw Panther und sein Abarten pp 71 has a photo of a new Panther G at a showing for the top brass. In the background is a Hummel munitions carrier with six medium size silent bloc wheels, designed by Krupp. To the best of my knowledge this design did not enter service, nor have I seen any other photos of it) The wheels were mounted on geared swing arms suspended against springs made of simple Belleville washers held in tubes, with a hydraulic shock absorber down the centre of each. The suspension unit was designed by MAN of Augsburg, and was small, due to the high loading it could take, and easy to produce. The washers could be churned out on most stamping machines. The axles for the swing arms still needed machining on a lathe, but they were nowhere near the size of torsion bars. The complete bogie was refered to as "Einheitslaufwerk", or standardized running gear. A lesson learned from the American Sherman suspension was that none of the components was handed. The wheels straddled the track guide teeth, but the same length axles were used: the wheels had a bearing spacer on one side which could be reversed, setting one wheel in and one wheel out. An escape hatch could be fitted in the hull floor now, almost impossible with torsion bars. Mine damage would be much easier to fix as the complete unit could be unbolted and replaced, where as mine damaged and buckled torsion bars often had to be removed with a cutting torch, after the interleaved wheels had been removed first of course.

[FreakyDude]

started working on some sketches and I ordered some 7075 aluminum sheet today.
I really like the info being shared and I will use it all. The Vampyre system is actually quite nice and it will allow me too build an skdz as well to support the tank.that should be easy, I'll just get an RC truck and gut it to the frame and rebuild up. Maybe I can use some panzer 3 or 4 tracks for the drive.
Awesome info on unique suspensions. I kind of like the idea of a bolt on outside the tank but that presents some problems in my mind. Like where do I find shocks that small.
Thanks for the efforts guys

[panzerschreck]

Just another angle to this one

Had Germany still gone after the Sovites in 1941, but fully mobilised their industry a good 6 months or so before, then things become a little more interesting - especially if (by some miracle I grant you ) the Fuhrer had been persuaded NOT to declare war on the USA post Pearl Harbour...

Also getting German women into the factories would have solved the problems later faced through acts of sabotage by slave labourers

In terms of armour, as much as I love my big German cats, the up-gunned Panzer IV with the L/48 75 mm gun was perfectly capable of dealing with the T34 76/85 model tanks, as were the later Stug III/IV equipped with the same, whilst the jagdpanzer IV with the L/70 75 mm gun could have dealt with the heavier Soviet stuff

All of these tanks/assault guns/tank destroyers had the essential qualities of a proven basic design, were reliable and could be built in far larger numbers than the complex later designs which only (at best) delayed the inevitable...