Hooben T55

BigPanzer
Lance Corporal
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Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:37 pm

Re: Hooben T55

Post by BigPanzer »

Hi Sax,

Sounds like the two of you have a good idea there, thanks for putting it forward. I won't get chance to play till late tonight, but that is a good possibility.

One thing Hooben have done that is really helpful is that the turret and its base are screwed together, not glued. Also, most of the internals can be built up on the base so there is plenty of access.

I will build up the turret as standard first to see where the improvements need to be made. Unfortunately the mail here is terrible at this time of year and I'm not only still waiting for the turret gearboxes, my memory stick still hasn't arrived.

More later

Peter
BigPanzer
Lance Corporal
Posts: 248
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:37 pm

Re: Hooben T55

Post by BigPanzer »

Hello Everybody,

Its been quite a while since my last post, but now its time to look at the turret.

The first part of the turret assembly I looked at (because I've been asked about it) was the barrel and the recoil sleeve. One concern I had, because the barrel itself is quite heavy, was play in either the recoil sleeve or the support mounts and I decided that both needed improvement.
Though the amount of barrel wobble was quite small when new, there is a high potential for wear in both the recoil slide and the trunnion mounts.

First the recoil sleeve. This consists of a resin casting of tubular design. Cast into it are bushes which take the screws which secure the sleeve to the mounts. More about these screws later. This has obviously been cast around a metal core because while the inside of the sleeve is smooth, the outside is quite rough. The bore and the outside are not quite concentric, but this was so slightly out I didn't think it was worth bothering about.
Sliding within this sleeve is another cast resin tube. This has a thread in the outer end into which the ally barrel screws. The breech end has a bracket cast into it which takes the recoil mechanism. The outer surface of this tube is rough, so we have a rough casting sliding within the smooth bore of the recoil sleeve - not a good idea from the point of view of possible wear!
There was a bit of play between the tube and the sleeve and the first job I undertook was to try to eliminate this play.

Sax suggested an idea thought up by Deitrich, which was simple but effective and that was to put a layer of heatshrink over the tube. I tried this, but found that the heatshrink I had was slightly too thick. I could have reduced the diameter of the tube very slightly or got some thinner heatshrink, but then I thought of another method which is even simpler, but means going back to the spares box.

I found a couple of neoprene "O" rings. One is about 10mm i/d x 12mm od. This fits nicely over the base of the thread in the ally barrel and goes right down to the shoulder. The second one is about 12mm i/d and 15mm o/d. This also goes over the barrel thread and sits part on top of the smaller ring.
When the barrel is screwed into its mounting tube the two O rings are compressed slightly until all the play is removed. I lubricated them lightly with a very thick silicone diff oil and found that this simple mod worked well. The amount of friction was adjustable simply by screwing in or unscrewing the barrel. When set for "best" the barrel assembly would slide through the recoil sleeve by gravity alone, but I tightened it about 1/8 of a turn so there was slight friction, but no play.
The inside (breech) end of the gun is prevented from waggling by the recoil mechanism after its fitted.
So there we have it - a barrel that slides smoothly, with no play!
If the O rings wear, which they might do eventually, replacement is simply a matter of unscrewing the barrel, removing the worn ring and popping on a new one then applying a smear of lube.

Now to the gun mounts. These are moulded into the base of the turret. There is a screw which goes through each mount into the bushes in the recoil sleeve. This means that there is a steel screw rotating within a hole in plastic - again not a good idea from the wear point of view so I decided to sleeve the holes in the mounts with brass.
This is where the fun starts! The diameter of the screws is between sizes of the hard brass tube available from model shops, so it is neccessary to make our own sleeves. This would only have taken a couple of minutes in the lathe, but once again I wanted to find a method that could be done by hand.
Find a bit of brass tube that is the nearest possible to the screw size. There should be slight play there. Cut a couple of bits around 5mm long, either by hacksaw or tube cutter then split them down one side. There is an easy way to do this - put them one at a time on a mandrel (I found the handle of an old paint brush ideal) and use a standard hacksaw (not a junior one, the cut will be too thin) and use your finger and thumb as a guide for the blade.
You should find that if these split bushes are compressed slightly they should become a good fit on the screws.
Now find part D23. This is the bit that holds the rear end of the "canvas" flash shield. You will notice that there is a shallow cut out on the bottom of this to take the bottom of the barrel when the gun is fully depressed. Note that this is assymetrical.
Test assemble the gun barrel to the mounts (without the bushes you have just made). Put part D23 over the gun, line the barrel up with this cut out and see how many spacer washers are required each side of the bushes on the recoil sleeve to line everything up properly. You will need to be able to get at least one washer in the right hand side, trim the bush if needed with a file, keeping the end of the bush square. I found I needed an extra two washers on the left side to line everything up.
Now put your bushes over the screws and offer them up to the holes in the mounts. You will probably find that you need to open up the mount holes a bit with a fine round file, but don't overdo it! You want the bushes to be a press fit into the holes, which will tighten them up onto the screws, but the screws need to be able to rotate. You might also have to enlarge the slits in them slightly with a flat needle file.
Once you are happy with both the fit of the bushes in the mount holes and the fit of the screws in the bushes, you can fit the bushes and glue with cyano. They need to be symmetrical with the mount holes (equal bits sticking out either side of each mount) and before you glue you need to ensure that a bit of straight shafting or a long screw will fit right through, ensuring accurate alignment.
Now take 4 of your washers and epoxy one of them to each side of each mount and also to the projecting ends of the bushes. Put the assembly aside to cure thoroughly while you have a look at the recoil motor.

More later

Peter
sassgrunt
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Re: Hooben T55

Post by sassgrunt »

Hi Peter;

Thank you again for your build notes - they are helping me considerably on mine.

I had a couple of challenges while working on the turret, and if you don't mind, I wanted to add to your thread in case it would help you or anyone else with their build.

I am using the Plastruct glue in the bottle, and that seems to work well for this plastic. I did not like the fit of the barrel and recoil sleeve, and solved it by finding a diameter of brass tube that would fit into the sleeve, and fit over the reduced diameter at the front of the resin barrel attachment. I believe this tube was 15/32" diameter, (but I'm not at home as I'm writing this, so I'll have to check to be sure). I used files and sandpaper to reduce the diameter of the barrel attachment piece until the whole thing would slide through the tube. When you start getting close to the diameter that you need, and the resin piece will fit into the tube but still hangs up in places, one thing that helps is that the brass discolors the resin piece in the places where it contacts - and you can file away the discolorations to achieve a perfect fit. I used sandpaper wrapped around a wooden dowel to file out the inside of the recoil sleeve until it was a snug fit. Eventually, (after fitting all of the barrel, trunnion, and recoil parts together), I used super glue to fix it permanently, and Tamiya Ceramic Grease to lubricate the barrel piece.

For the gun trunnions, I found a small pair of brass eyelets that fit into the holes in the sides of the barrel sleeve. I epoxied 3mm nuts to the outside of the gun mount arms. I found a pair of short metal rods in my spares box, where most of the rod is smooth, with 3mm threads at the end, which is slotted for a screwdriver. They are about 9mm long in total, and are Tamiya parts; though I don't know from exactly what model. Very similar to the scew that locks the differential of the F-350 High Lift truck. Using these rods, I insert the smooth end through the nut in the gun mount, and as the threads contact the nut, I can use a screwdriver to screw them in flush. Once everything else is fitted, I will use that blue Tamiya threadlock to keep them in place. Now the entire gun assembly has a steel-and-brass pivot, and works very smothly.

I had some challenges with the recoil and elevation units, but will make another post so that this one isn't so long.

-Mike
sassgrunt
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Location: Hawaii, USA

Re: Hooben T55

Post by sassgrunt »

I received the Hooben recoil and elevation units with my kit, but was unable to use them - or perhaps 'unwilling' would be a better word. On the recoil unit, I had trouble with the mounting screws. They were either too long and contacted the bottom of the big recoil gear, or they caused the plastic of the housing to strip. (It seems like the plastic of the housing is softer than what Tamiya uses - either that, or maybe I just don't have as much finesse as the rest of you). So out of frustration, I decided to use a spare recoil unit from a Tamiya Pershing. The mounting holes did not line up with the Hooben plate - naturally - so I also used a Pershing mounting plate. I enlargded the lower hole of the Pershing mounting plate hole, and it fit the mounting holes of the recoil sleeve just fine. Then, I found that the Tamiya parts fit about 3/8" closer to the recoil sleeve than the Hooben parts, so I used spacers to move it to the rear. Works great.

I was going to use the Hooben elevation unit, but I really didn't like how cheap it looked in comparison to the Tamiya one, (and I may use Tamiya electronics for this tank anyway, so using their elevation unit would make the connections easier). The mounting screws for the Tamiya unit are smaller that the mounting holes provided in the turret floor, so the unit has a lot of slop in it. Rather than trying to sleeve the holes, (which is probably the smart way to do it), I mounted a bracket on the side of the unit. I used one of Daryl's aluminum elevation arms, but it points to the rear (like all of the Tamiya elevation units do) and was nowhere near the right area for the mounting hole in the recoil plate. So, I took out the shaft that the arm mounts to, and turned it and the final gear around 180 degrees, so that it points towards the front. Then, I could use the plastic Hooben connecting arm between the elevation unit and the recoil plate. Worked out very well.

-Mike
sassgrunt
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Re: Hooben T55

Post by sassgrunt »

Last message regarding the turret, (trying to be helpful, but not step on anyone's toes, so I'll see how these are received before I post anything else).

That part D23 that Peter talked about - the plastic part that holds the "canvas'" flash shield - that silly thing took me about three hours to fit up, and I'm still not very happy with it. I used super glue to mount the canvas to D23, (and make sure that the canvas points down a lot, because D23 is mounted leaning to the rear quite a bit). Once assembled and in place, you have to fit the front of the canvas to the resin part of the barrel that is sticking out of the recoil sleeve. That wasn't any fun either, and when I was done, the "tautness" of the canvas cover is nowhere near what I would like it to be - looks like an elephant's wrinkles. If anybody brings out an aftermarket, fully-assembled replacement part, I would be the first in line to buy it.

-Mike
BigPanzer
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Re: Hooben T55

Post by BigPanzer »

Hi Mike,

Many thanks for the input. I've been hoping that other builders would stick their heads up and let us all know their solutions to the problems they are having.

Regarding the eyelets you used for the trunnions, thats exactly what I wanted to use but my ever faithful scrap box let me down. I know I have some somewhere, but could I find them?

After having had the recoil unit apart 3 times trying to get the damn thing to work properly I've taken a break from the turret and am currently looking at the hull interior and wondering how I'm going to get everything in there and still leave room for a decent speaker and enclosure. I'm held up on that now because I really need the Benedini module but can't afford it at the moment.

I've tried both the original elevation unit and a Tam one (from a KT). The Tam one is in there at the moment, which means making a new mounting plate, but I will probably go back to the Hooben unit because there is less play in it and it has the built in microswitches and diodes to limit travel. I've got an old servo which I will strip for the electronics and use the board as a speed controller which means I can drive it straight from the Rx.

Thanks again for the input. I'm glad to hear that some of the build comments have been useful to you. Do please keep everybody updated on your build.

Cheers

Peter (please can you send us some of your Hawaiian weather, its bl**dy freezing here)
rshermanking
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Location: portsmouth

Re: Hooben T55

Post by rshermanking »

hi guys have been following this build and will be doing some of the mods that you have done but not just yet , i wanted to build the tank up first to see where their could be improvment . just some pics of my turret using hoobens electrics but connected to tamiya dmds
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sassgrunt
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Re: Hooben T55

Post by sassgrunt »

Rshermanking, your canvas cover came out great! - much better and more tightly fit than mine did. It's also good that you were able to use the Hooben recoil and elevation units as well. Your turret mechanisms are installed really well.

I don't dislike the Hooben units - I just wasn't skillful enough to use them in my build. I will save them and use both of them in another build - probably the Elmod SU-152 kit.

I can warn you about one other pitfall that I managed to stumble into. There is a two-piece linkage arm that connects the retainer ring for the canvas, part C-41, to the spotlight mounting platform, (so that the spotlight elevates with the main gun). These white metal arm pieces, parts TA5 and TA6, use 2mm screws for their pivot points. I carefully filed the flats where the two arms are 'sandwiched' together. Once they would pivot smoothly, I tapped the clevis at the end of part TA5 for the screw, and tried to drill/ream out the hole in part TA6; large enough so that it would pivot around the screw. "Tried" is the operative word, because as I got the hole close to the size it needed to be, I was paying more attention to the television than what I was doing; and the metal eye shattered! Let me tell you - I was pretty frustrated.

Back to the spares box. I found a couple of very small cotter pins; cut the two of them to match the length of TA6; and super glued them into a length of very small diameter aluminum tube. The whole process took me about an hour - 50 minutes to just sit there and glare at the broken part, and about 10 minutes to make the replacement. That parts are a nice operating feature; just not very forgiving if you're heavy-handed. Take more care than I did with it, and you'll like it.

And Peter, if I could swap you warm weather for being able to go to the great museums you have at Bovington and IWM, I'd do it in a heartbeat. -Mike
BigPanzer
Lance Corporal
Posts: 248
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Re: Hooben T55

Post by BigPanzer »

Hi,

The Tam stuff goes in there very nicely - almost looks made to measure, and I do like the extra detail on the tool boxes and tanks.

Have you had it running yet? I've had the chassis going over cushions with the battery pack, esc's and rx loose in the hull. Looks very promising, but I think the brass gears in the drive boxes need bedding in a bit. Possibly still a bit of misalignment there.

I've looked at the searchlight mounting and yes, it looks fragile but a neat touch. And I've put off the "canvas" for another day! I just know I'm going to stick myself to it!

One thing I have done that may be of interest is to get coaxial mg flash. This might be relavant to rshermanking as you have the output from the Tam black box.
The coaxial mg goes to the right of the main gun looking forward (I hope, thats where I've put it) but the gun mount on the base is in the way. I found a screw the right diameter to fit the trunnion and filed a slot in the head to fit some small bore brass tube about 1/2" long. This tube is just about the right diameter to fit over some 1mm fibre optic. I silver soldered this into the slot in the head and trimmed it to length so it could be fully rotated to tighten it into the trunnion. Leave it a fraction of a turn loose, and you will have to bend the tube a bit so it pokes out through the slot in the upper turret and I "cheated" a bit and widened this slot slightly as well.
Its not difficult to cobble together something to hold the LED from bits of tube and this holder can go somewhere on the gear casing for the recoil mechanism.
Some unshrunk heatshrink can connect the LED holder and the rear end of the tube soldered to the trunnion screw. Last of all, thread your bit of fibre optic cable through.
Don't try to shrink the heatshrink over the fibre optic cable - its got a very low melting point and you will knacker it. (Guess how I found that out). Shrink it onto the led holder and trunnion screw "mg muzzle" with a bit of wire inside it first, then withdraw the wire and push the optic fibre through.
It takes a bit of fiddling to get it right, but Ive tried it and it looks really good because the bolt head turns as the barrel elevates.

Cheers

Peter
rshermanking
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Location: portsmouth

Re: Hooben T55

Post by rshermanking »

Thanks guys it hasn`t bean an easy build or quick like some of the others i have done but it has bean enjoyable. The canvas cover was a big headache that it took three days of thinking of how do i do this and about an 10 min worth of cutting and gluing madness plus praying alot. As for the two peace linkage , bean their broke it , just at the point wear it connects to the light bracket but havn`t got round to fixing it yet. I have had it running and it runs ok over the odd shoe and slipper , turret and gun elevation gearbox are noisey but work realy well . I did have the gun recoil working at one point but when trying to sort out the wires i mange to break the micro-swicth , no big deal just a pain to get a new one.


rshermanking
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