22 June

[Dietrich]

Hu Guys,
I make no attempt to disguise the fact that in my opinion I consider the terms of the 1918 Armistice to have been outrageous !......and with that in mind I consider that the history of the WW2 need to be 'Re-examined' and re-written with a neutral mind that is in FULL POSSESSION of ALL the relevant documentation.....SO here goes...on THE DATE
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In 1940 the disgraceful treatment of Germany at the hands of the French in 1918 was Beautifully avenged. The 1918 Treaty required that Germany accept sole responsibility for causing the war and that it make reparations to certain members of the Allied forces. I consider the Terms that were 'Imposed' upon Germany to have been disgraceful and that in fact the harshness of these terms in my opinion, were a massive contributory factor in the Second World War. Further conditions imposed by the Treaty included Germany losing a certain amount of its own territory to a number of surrounding countries and being stripped of all its overseas colonies.
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However back to THE exact date on 22 June in 1940.....The French were forced to surrender and the Very Same rail carriage that was used by the French to accept the German surrender in 1918 . It was 'dragged out' of the museum and placed in exactly the same spot.......The French representative was made to sit in the same seat as the German commander in 1918 ......
A perfect irony ........
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On 22nd June 1941 the German 'Pre-emptive' attack on the Soviet Union started....OPERATION BARBAROSSA.....Thanks to the fairly resent release of previously withheld historical documents from Russia (and German copies that were captured in the initial speed of advance ) it has been confirmed that the German attack ,'Beat the Russians' to the launching of their OWN attack Westwards,by only about 6 weeks. Otherwise a unimaginable and probably unstoppable wave of communist forces would have poured across the borders of Western Europe....possibly only to be halted at the channel ....but more likely to have conquered Great Britain as well if only due to shear weight of numbers
If there can be any doubt that the commies were massing for an attack ,just look at the numbers of soldiers who were captured and the shear volume of equipment that was captured in the first few weeks,of the German attack.
Interestingly the German Commanders were denied access to these Documents at their subsequent trials after the end of WW2....and were punished for starting a war against the communists when all they did was to make a 'first strike'.....I found THIS on YouTube which was also completely new to me.....it is worth sitting through and reading...because it is in German with sub-titles AND Hitler is speaking normally as opposed to the 'rants' that are usually shown
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... _Q5AbhMPcM

[Inflatable]

Well, even if it was a socalled frist strike that still means you started it.. Besides that it was a pretty dumb tactic of defence if you ask me it was all true.. Nazi Germany was strong enough to defend of any attack.. Yet they made the mistake to attack themselfs and spread their resources to thin over way to much ground which eventually cost them..

Both Hitler and Stalin regime were evil.. Good they are gone..

[Dietrich]

Hi Inflatable,
I am fairly certain that ' I' did not actually start the Second World War ( )........I am a bit too young...and I am also English........BUT.....I will add this bit of History....Lengthy ,but worth a read I think.....
The ' Terms' of the armistice that was forced upon Germany made her accept that the First World War was her fault !!.....This is simply not true !!.(.and may have lead to 'resentment')
If I remember correctly then ,History goes something like this........ Arch-Duke Ferdinand and his wife were killed in Sarajevo by a Serbian Anarchist called Gavrilo Princip. the Arch-Duke was the heir to the Austro Hungarian Throne. Their murder rather upset the Austro-Hungarians who made certain demands upon the Serbians that I cannot remember without looking it up. The Serbians refused so Austro-Hungaria declaerd war on Serbia, I believe by telegram which was a world first....(and showed a courtesy that was rather lacking, in Japans case in 1941at Pearl Harbour )
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Russia now decides to join the fight to defend its fellow Slavs from attack and declares war on Austro-Hungary ( now to be shortened to AH ).......Germany who is very closely linked with A H now declares war on Russia. Germany calls the French diplomat to Berlin and asks what the French position will be as they had a treaty with Russia...( I have no idea why they had a treaty !) The French decide to go away and consult and promptly begin to secretly mobilise their army.....Germany taking this quite rightly as a preparation for war mobilise their army in the West against the French.
To properly attack the French the Germans went through Belgium which was a 'Neutral' country......Britain who decided that a Europe dominated by the Germans and the AH would be bad for her interests....Remember that we still had most if not ALL of our Empire. ....(Tips his hat in respect to good old Queen Victoria)........So Britain decided to 'get in on the act' and used a treaty from 1839.....so about 75 Years old !!....to get involved and to support the French and declared war as well........SO the whole house of cards came crashing down...and WW1 killed about 20 Million.....
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( Just as a side issue The Flu epidemic that followed in 1919 and was helped to be spread by troops returning home and being kissed etc. It managed to kill about 21 million.....)
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As you can see the First Worlds War was NOT started by the Germans, but the French Insisted that they sign to accept total responsibility.....and that they did start it.
Germany lost the war, were forced to accept total responsibility for it, lost all of their empire and large areas of Germany, had factories etc seized and shipped away by the French AND had a debt to pay with MASSIVE reparations involving monies that Germany could never hope to pay and that was quite clearly impossible under the economic conditions.........
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You have to ask...... 'Who Created The Conditions That Made It Possible for a man like Hitler to come to power ?? '...
AND I would add to be VOTED into power ??............There is only one answer and that is the people with whom Britain / England had been at war with for Hundreds of Years....and it is the same country who managed to avoid joining NATO in the days of the Cold War...........and THAT country is FRANCE.
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I live in France, it is a lovely country and they really are a lovely people, but some of their history is more than a bit embarassing ( even to them )......
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I would agree with you that Stalin and Hitlers regime's were evil...............I think that Stalins was probably the 'Winner' with Hitler a close 'Second'.....BUT On the other hand though once Germany was defeated and Japan forced to finally surrender with the twin 'Knock-out Punches' at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
..........WHY Did The Western Allies, knowing what an evil man stalin was, let him KEEP.................Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, Rumania, Czechoslovakia,Yugoslavia,Bulgaria, Poland & East Germany ?.....When they had the NUCLEAR BOMB.....A single comment should have been said to him, and that was 'Get Out Of those countries NOW or we WILL use Nuclear Bombs'
All the poor people in soviet occupied Europe would have been free and millions would not have died under soviet domination......The Warsaw Pact would Not then have existed ......NATO would have been much larger and stronger against stalin. Maybe the cold war might never have been, now THAT might have made WW2 a little bit more worth while....Even TODAY...Russia Still occupies and intends to keep large parts of Finland and of Poland.....with Poland Intending to keep a large area of Eastern Germany..........now what is that that people say about History repeating intself ??
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You comment of 'Besides that it was a pretty dumb tactic of defence if you ask me...is a little odd though.... 'Attack is the best form of Defence' has been around as an expression for hundreds of years and is usually attributed to 'Carl von Clausewitz' and was also allegedly said by the famous American George Washington ...... Clearly What better time to attack an enemies forces than whilst it is 'forming up', with its equipment and divisions all over the place........They are unprepared, disorganised, un-iformed often leaderless and if they are aware of any plans then thay are all of attack and not of BEING attacked by the intended enemy. The timing was perfect just look at the initial sucess and at the numbers of men and material captured....but the execution of the attack ,on 3 prongs was poor. The drive should have been straight to Moscow.
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Just as a final comment.....The reparations that France forced Germany to pay for the First World War.......... were finally repaid in 2010.....so I think that the reparations, really WERE perhaps a little bit too steep....what do you think......This is what the 'great' newspaper the SUN had to say.......with my underlining.....
Alb.
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GERMANY will finally clear its World War One reparations on Sunday — 92 years after the guns finally fell silent over Europe.
A final payment of £59.5million writes off the crippling debt which was the price of one world war — and one of the main reasons for the next.
The huge reparations were set up as compensation for the war-ravaged nations of Belgium and France.
They were also meant to repay the Allies some of the costs of waging the world's bloodiest ever war.
The initial sum agreed upon for war damages in 1919 was 226billion Reichsmarks — the equivalent of £24billiion
The bill would have been settled much earlier had Adolf Hitler not reneged on reparations during his reign.
The hatred for the huge reparations in Germany — which crippled the country as it tried to shape itself into a democracy following WW1 — helped propel the Nazis into power.
German tabloid Bild said today: “On Sunday the last bill is due and the First World War finally, financially at least, terminates for Germany.”

[jarndice]

I absolutely agree with DIETRICH, There is no doubt that the European war of 1939-45 was a direct result of successive French governments inflexibility to remove most if not all of the trade and fiscal restrictions that were imposed upon Germany, there-by effectively destroying any hope of building a sustainable economy in Germany.
As an Englishman I get a certain satisfaction knowing that the British government was always opposed to the vengeful anti German Versailles treaty which mainly lost sight of the reason for the treaty (reparations and re-alinement of borders)
Given the post WW2 economic strength of Germany vis a vie France I feel sure that in first Bonn and latterly Berlin there is a feeling of satisfaction matched to I TOLD YOU SO!!!
What a dreadful price we all paid for peace when a little bit of give and take would have resolved any issues in 1919!!!
I would like to add that to Britain's eternal shame we declared war upon Germany on September 3rd 1939 too save Poland from the invading German armed forces which we patently obviously failed to do and compounded that shameful failure by saying and doing nothing to prevent the Soviet Union doing the same in 1945! shaun

[HERMAN BIX]

I dared to speak such a view back when I was in school.
Massive amount of trouble was I in at the very highest level.
When confronted with explaining how & why I would posess such a warped view, it was revealed that I did indeed own more books on the subject than our own school library had at any given time.
I formed my own opinion based on the reading & understanding of both the written and more importantly, the un-written information.

[billpe]

There were many causes, there is no one central cause.

I would like to add that to Britain's eternal shame we declared war upon Germany on September 3rd 1939 too save Poland from the invading German armed forces which we patently obviously failed to do and compounded that shameful failure by saying and doing nothing to prevent the Soviet Union doing the same in 1945! shaun

It wasn't as clear cut as all that. Britain in the 30's was pacifist, everyone remembered the 14-18 war and didn't want another, the death and near bankruptcy was still very fresh - there was no way to physically check Germany in Poland in 1939. In 1945 Britain was literally bankrupt and asking the US for loans, not for weapons but to prop up the British economy. A further war was just not feasible, against a foe which had no concept of not having a war economy all day, every day for decades. For better or worse, that is a trade off of living in a democracy vs a totalitarian bastardisation of communism led by a psychotic despot. It's also the reason we now have a EU, UNHCR and ECHR but those with nationalistic, backwards thinking short sighted agendas can't see that.

[jarndice]

BILLPE Hi, I understand what you are saying but WHY as a self declared pacifist did Mr Chamberlain sign a treaty guaranteeing Poland's borders, most especially when to get to Poland to carry out such obligations the British armed forces would have to first pass through German territory!!
And something often forgotten by historians is that at the beginning of WW2 the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland was one of the strongest military nations and indeed in concert with our treaty partner France we outnumbered Germany in Tanks and Military aircraft and the Royal Navy was easily larger than our nearest protagonist.
We were one of the richest,Nations in the world at that time .Adolph Hitler quite rightly had no wish to fight with the British Empire and made what he considered many concessions to keep the peace with us.
By then that nice Mr Churchill had taken on Mr Chamberlains job, and while Mr Churchill was a man of many talents and gifts, pacifism seems to have eluded him!
5 Years on and we were broke and indebted to the new kid on the block the United States but there was turmoil throughout Europe in 1945, the British Government suffered a total reversal of policies, at the same time The United States had a new President and was not at all familier with "The Special Relationship" as witnessed by his demand for the repayment for all the arms we had leased to fight the war in October of 1945, BUT suffering the belief that we were still a great nation (something some politicians still cling to) we carried on telling the rest of the World how to act correctly, so when Joe Stalin said to Britain F*ck off we were shocked but could do nothing to help Poland and Mr Atlee crawled of to buy B29 (Washingtons) from the USA as we had stopped building heavy bombers just when the threat from the East was raising its ugly face,
still he did create the NHS. "My country right or wrong" shaun

[billpe]

He signed because he was working on an assumption that no one wanted another war, that Hitler's desire for living space would be sufficiently filled by giving up parts of Czechoslovakia, that France was properly organised and it's military, contrary to what it was, wasn't rotten to the core or plagued with out dated doctrines. He worked on the idea that, just like WW1, Britain could starve Germany (read about the 'Turnip winter' in Germany - the British blockade ended WW1) History actually repeats itself today with Putin basically doing what Hitler did and no one wants a war other than the guy wanting territory. IT's not because we couldn't win, but it's what will be lost in gaining victory.

On the contrary, Britain in 1939 only had a strong surface fleet. The Army was a glorified colonial police force that could only muster a few full time divisions in the UK, the Royal Air Force was years behind the Luftwaffe in quantities of modern aircraft. Britain's Bomber doctrine still relied on the notion in the early 30's that the bomber will always get through so had created a collection of out dated light bombers not capable of anything useful, it's tanks were from a cottage industry which didn't reform until 1944 (just look at the early cruiser tanks...). Even the Navy had some problems and didn't start requipping with new ships until 1937 and then only slowly. Germany had been equipping for war since 1933, Britain was years behind.

It's easy to say we had X on paper and they had Y but in reality the idea of stopping Hitler in Poland, which after all was a surprise attack which lasted just weeks is just not a realistic one. At best we could have sent the Home Fleet to have sacrificed themselves had they got trapped in the Baltic with no air cover to speak of.

BTW the B29s were an atomic capable stop gap, I don't believe they cost Britain anything in the end just like the F86s. The Lancaster and Lincoln could carry the weight of an atomic bomb but lacked the range to do so to the Soviet Union until the V force was completed.

[billpe]

Churchill did try and bargain for those countries under Soviet occupation but Stalin went back on his word, just look at the Polish government in exile. Stalin killed all of them.

Robert Service's "Stalin" is a good book to read to get a feel of just how he worked. Stalin would always trade so he got a favourable outcome, he knew what he could and couldn't get away with which was why he was so dangerous.

The only thing the western allies had in their favour over the Soviets militarily, was Naval and that British and US aircraft engines were mostly optimised for high altitude flight. The Soviets never developed or really put much thought into high performance super or turbo chargers as the VVS was primarily a support arm of the army. In that sense a B29 being escorted by P51s at 28,000ft would have been untouchable by Soviet aircraft of that period. Ash 82 was pretty much the stock Soviet high performance radial and they didn't have a variable speed super charger on one until the late 40's. However hitting Moscow, let alone the Urals is still at the very limits of the B29's endurance.

[plato83]

I have a day trip planned for june 6th let me no if anyones interested

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