Need help with Tiger 1 Kursk

[Ghost Tanker]

Hi all,

I'm currently working on an RC Tiger 1 and I want to mark it up as a 505th battalion tiger that took part in Operation Citadel. (primarily so i can use the knight/charger logo)

The problem is, I can't find any turret numbers for tanks from 505th anywhere. I'm not super worried about accuracy, but it would be good to have an actual tank number that took part. The only pictures I've found so far are of tiger 323 with the double iron crosses on it's kit box. It did take part in Citadel, but I believe it's from 503rd Battalion? Any Kursk experts out there who could lend me a hand?

Thanks

[ausf]

I have both JJ Fedo books on Citadel as well as the unit histories, but off the top of my head, I think I have 503, 507 and 508.

I'll check later today/tonight for what I can find.

Do you know if the 505 was in the North or South?

[jukebox]

Hi Ghost Tanker,
I have found this picture in one of my books, Tigers In Combat I (Wolfgang Schneider), the tanks were in summer camouflage of dunkelgelb with olive green applied over the top, you can just about make out the pattern in the picture below of the 1st company commander's tank number 100:

I also have pictures showing Tigers with the numbers II (battalion command), 113, 121, 143 during Operation Citadel, also Tigers 300 and 313 although the 3rd Company didn't arrive until 8th July so didn't really contribute much to the combat. None of the pictures I have of 505th Tiger I's show the "charging knight" battalion insignia applied during Operation Citadel, it only seems to have been applied from autumn 1943 onwards.

Hope this helps!

Steve

[Ghost Tanker]

I have both JJ Fedo books on Citadel as well as the unit histories, but off the top of my head, I think I have 503, 507 and 508.

I'll check later today/tonight for what I can find.

Do you know if the 505 was in the North or South?

Thanks for that. not sure about their geography at the time but i'll have a google and see what I can find.

[Ghost Tanker]

Hi Ghost Tanker,
I have found this picture in one of my books, Tigers In Combat I (Wolfgang Schneider), the tanks were in summer camouflage of dunkelgelb with olive green applied over the top, you can just about make out the pattern in the picture below of the 1st company commander's tank number 100:

DSCF3579.jpg

I also have pictures showing Tigers with the numbers II (battalion command), 113, 121, 143 during Operation Citadel, also Tigers 300 and 313 although the 3rd Company didn't arrive until 8th July so didn't really contribute much to the combat. None of the pictures I have of 505th Tiger I's show the "charging knight" battalion insignia applied during Operation Citadel, it only seems to have been applied from autumn 1943 onwards.

Hope this helps!

Steve

Thanks Steve. Interesting point about the charger knight. I think you are right. too be honest I've not found a single photo of it actually on a tank yet, just in german records. It seems also that quite often the 505th didn't even display turret numbers. Sometimes only displaying on their gun barrels (if at all)

I really like the logo though and most others seem to be done over and over, not that there is anything wrong with that, just thought I'd give the lesser mentioned tanks some limelight. I may have to do a Smolensk 44 onwards version to incorporate the knight.

Should my plans fail, can anyone recommend a lesser known division that took part in Normandy? where the green and yellow (and sometimes red brown) cammo scheme was prevalent.

Thanks again for any help

[Ghost Tanker]

I have both JJ Fedo books on Citadel as well as the unit histories, but off the top of my head, I think I have 503, 507 and 508.

I'll check later today/tonight for what I can find.

Do you know if the 505 was in the North or South?

Did some digging and it seems North.

"On the second day, the Central Front under Rokossovsky started a counterattack against the German 9th Army, particularly the XLVI Tank Corps. The Red Army attacked with the 2nd Tank Army and the XIX Tank Corps, but this operational counterattack was launched too early. Soviet tanks sustained heavy losses in their first combat with Tiger tanks of 505th Heavy Tank Battalion. The 107th and 164th Tank Brigade lost 69 tanks and the Soviet attack was stopped. After the encounter with German Tigers, Rokossovsky decided to dig in most of his tanks and use them as static anti-tank guns."

Rokossovsky was in the north if my maps are correct.

[ausf]

I have both JJ Fedo books on Citadel as well as the unit histories, but off the top of my head, I think I have 503, 507 and 508.

I'll check later today/tonight for what I can find.

Do you know if the 505 was in the North or South?

Did some digging and it seems North.

"On the second day, the Central Front under Rokossovsky started a counterattack against the German 9th Army, particularly the XLVI Tank Corps. The Red Army attacked with the 2nd Tank Army and the XIX Tank Corps, but this operational counterattack was launched too early. Soviet tanks sustained heavy losses in their first combat with Tiger tanks of 505th Heavy Tank Battalion. The 107th and 164th Tank Brigade lost 69 tanks and the Soviet attack was stopped. After the encounter with German Tigers, Rokossovsky decided to dig in most of his tanks and use them as static anti-tank guns."

Rokossovsky was in the north if my maps are correct.

The books are split into North and South and are stuffed with photos, so that narrows it down for me to check easier.

[Dietrich]

Hi ausf,
I have just looked on line at the Tiger Battalions website here....
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tigers-02.htm
It places the battalion (that was formed in February 1943) in Models army in the North part of the salient for the disastrous battle of Kursk...
Here is a cut and paste of the entry for the 505th......Sorry that it is a bit large...I thought that I had cut it down enough..but I haven't..oops...

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.
Unfortunately the picture of the rather spectacular 'Charging Knight' is in the picture of the Tiger 1 but it is dated February 1944 so after the battle.....I will keep looking and see if I can find a photo or an image of it at the battle.....but somehow I have to doubt it because even the 1st, 2nd and 3rd SS Panzer Divisions, altered there divisional markings for the battle in an attempt to disguise there positions to the soviet intelligence. So a large red knight on the side of a turret would have been a dead giveaway.
Alb.

[Ghost Tanker]

Unfortunately the picture of the rather spectacular 'Charging Knight' is in the picture of the Tiger 1 but it is dated February 1944 so after the battle.....I will keep looking and see if I can find a photo or an image of it at the battle.....but somehow I have to doubt it because even the 1st, 2nd and 3rd SS Panzer Divisions, altered there divisional markings for the battle in an attempt to disguise there positions to the soviet intelligence. So a large red knight on the side of a turret would have been a dead giveaway.
Alb.

Thanks very much. Yeah I noticed that image and was about to go do the 311 version then I noticed the date! It's a shame cos I quite like that decal version. I saw somewhere else that the 505th used a "raging bull" possibly at Kursk. You have a point about about throwing off soviet intel, I had forgotten that, Doh!

Thanks for your help though. I may have to change my plans and see if the 505th took part in the defence of Normandy. They should have reverted to their charger logo by then.

[jonger]

Have you checked out Alan Hamby's site, the first tank on this page http://www.alanhamby.com/late.shtml seems to be what you want.