The Historical Point of view

[Saxondog]

I have been behind lately in my Historical record post, the last one being July 5th. But this one is critical to the Production of German Armor,the Panther and King Tiger being produced as a Direct result of the KURSK failure.

After reading several books and studies on this Battle,the greatest tank battle in History,as well as the greatest ground attack aerial battle.

But the issue that is overlooked repeatedly was the ABILITY TO STOP the battle before it happened,this was the best alternative facing the Germans,and the last one they considered.

But I thought we might consider it here,on our forum. The Russians spent millions of man hours and material into the trap they created for the German Armor Divisions,this was their greatest gamble,and it did pay off.

But what if the German WEHRMACHT had used a less offensive plan of attack? The Russian plan from the beginning of Barbarossa was one of fight and collapse, each time wearing the Germans down and extending their resources,and their lines of supply.

But after all the planning,the Russians relied on their tank traps,mines, natural terrain as defence,wearing down the German advantages of speed and superior tactical planning and implementation.

If the Germans Had lightly attacked the Russian defence and fell back,200kl then as the Russians surged forward their own defence network would be behind them,and obstructed their ability to use their tactical retreat strategy.

Of course we will never know,but I thought it would make an interesting discussion.

[Dietrich]

That would have made a very interesting scenario......as Kursk effectively finished off the German army in the East and totally handed the initiative to the commies.......I would have liked to have seen joe stalin lose in the the East...but I wonder what the world would then have been like......??
There are lots of interesting potential ' what ifs.....'
Avoiding the terrible, disasterous,appauling, pointless, stupid ( I have run out of words here ) First World war would have been high on my list.....the death of one man .....Archduke Ferdinand...killed by a bloomin' anarchist....then all the countries involved in their political alliances just allow thenselves to get dragged into the 'Greatest' conflict ever!! Well actually looking back at the films of the time all the troops seemed delighted to go....AT FIRST...until the reality struck home with the losses ( Battle of the Somme 1st July 1916 or should that read 'Slaughter' at the Somme 20,000 British troops were dead (almost 60,000 total casualties).....AND...THEN...courtesy mainly of the French...who forced Germany to not only accept total responsibility for the war but imposed such ridiculous reparations that could never have been realistically repaid...that the 'Hot-house' conditions are created in Germany as her economy collapses that a certain corporal can get to power and 'Ding Ding..goes the bell' for round 2 and another few million dead......Getting a bit deep and morbid here..time for a smiley and to stop typing I think At least we managed to win the cold war without it actually coming to a 'fighting' war......so theres a positive note to end on.....lets get back to TANKS hurrah !!

[cydwelicat]

without kursk what would the effect have been on eastern front in general. would the russians have taken 6 to 12 months more before wresting advantage from the germans who would have retained much of their armour lost at kursk?

[FreakyDude]

Well I for one am glad the Germans lost Kursk and shudder to think what a win would have meant to the Nazi's. To have Russia's bread basket and Oil reserves may have changed the direction of the war dramaticly.
I do believe at this stage Hitler's eventual loss of WWII was eminent though as the western allies would have eventually drained the German resources. Germany was already on the path to defeat by fighting in too many places at one time. I seriously believe had Hitler of attacked Russia instead of Poland, He may have very well won WWII.

Very interesting idea of moving back to draw the soviets away from there defences but would the comrades not have moved forward then withdrew themselves when German counters were launched?
I don't think Russia was capable of fighting a fluid attack/retreat style due to lack of mobility and qualified officers.
Logisticly I think Stalin did the right thing, The German's on the other hand should have bypassed the strongest defences and attacked with everything in 10 or 15 km corridors then hooked in behind the Russians trapping them with their backs to their own defences and no supply lines.
Just my 2 cents, back up into the armchair now lol

[mustclime]

But this one is critical to the Production of German Armor,the Panther and King Tiger being produced as a Direct result of the KURSK failure

this is not true imo....there were panthers at Kursk....they were rushed into preduction and most of them broke down( kinda like the m26) but the panthers were there so thier production could not be a "direct result of the Kursk failure".