battery packs

[madmonk25]

if your new rc tanks like me. when you buy your first tank.theres nothing in the instructions about how you should look after you battery packs at all. nothing about discharging them or how long to charging them.maybe it would be nice if someone did a guide on battery care. i am sorry if someone has done this already.but this would help me understand battery packs.and someone new to it as well.

[ausf]

I assume you mean the HL supplied yellow battery and wall charger. Both are destined for the bin.

If you decide you want to stick with these tanks, you'll need to upgrade those. It's not that expensive to do, not like Lipos and planes, since weight isn't an issue, but you'll need to.

The kit battery is a NiCad. I've been using them for years with the tanks and the batteries are easy to care for. They hold a charge over long periods of time, the only drawback to them is capacity and they have a memory.
By memory, I mean they can shorten their useable capacity if you charge them full, run them halfway down, charge them again, eventually they'll become that cycle. It's best to run them down to exhaustion, then charge. I have packs 10 years old that still work fine.

NiCads are cheap. you can get 1800-2000 mAh for relatively cheap. That capacity should get you a solid 20-30 minutes drive time and charge time with a real charger, not the wall plug, should be about 30 minutes.

Now we have NiMH batteries. They are similar to NiCad, but have much larger capacity and no memory issues. The only drawback is they may lose charge over time, so they are best charged before use. NiMH capacities go as high as 5000 mAh, so you can imagine the run times you'll get with them.

A decent charger can be as much as you want to spend, but if you only charge NiCad and NiMH and have no need to charge Lipo, Liion or LiFe batteries (mostly planes, etc) now or in the future, you can get a good one for around $40.

[madmonk25]

I assume you mean the HL supplied yellow battery and wall charger. Both are destined for the bin.

If you decide you want to stick with these tanks, you'll need to upgrade those. It's not that expensive to do, not like Lipos and planes, since weight isn't an issue, but you'll need to.

The kit battery is a NiCad. I've been using them for years with the tanks and the batteries are easy to care for. They hold a charge over long periods of time, the only drawback to them is capacity and they have a memory.
By memory, I mean they can shorten their useable capacity if you charge them full, run them halfway down, charge them again, eventually they'll become that cycle. It's best to run them down to exhaustion, then charge. I have packs 10 years old that still work fine.

NiCads are cheap. you can get 1800-2000 mAh for relatively cheap. That capacity should get you a solid 20-30 minutes drive time and charge time with a real charger, not the wall plug, should be about 30 minutes.

Now we have NiMH batteries. They are similar to NiCad, but have much larger capacity and no memory issues. The only drawback is they may lose charge over time, so they are best charged before use. NiMH capacities go as high as 5000 mAh, so you can imagine the run times you'll get with them.

A decent charger can be as much as you want to spend, but if you only charge NiCad and NiMH and have no need to charge Lipo, Liion or LiFe batteries (mostly planes, etc) now or in the future, you can get a good one for around $40.

i just up graded to this lot a Ansmann Racing 4500mAh 7.2V NiMh Stick Battery Pack x2
FS-LX41BP - Fusion LX41B Pro Ethos AC/DC Li-Po/Li-Ion/Li-Fe/Ni-Mh/Ni-Cd Balance Charger this should sort me out lol. as you say the stock battery packs are rubbish

[Dietrich]

Hi madmonk25,
Bloomin typical...I spend ages researching and editing, and then 'ausf' posts before me !..
How about THIS.........note that the 'NI Cad' batteriers are probably history by now, most of our will be 'Ni MH'

http://www.batterybarn.com/takecare.htm
.
This one is a bit heavy going.....and whats good for NASA may not be good for our 'Earth-bound' batteries !
http://users.frii.com/dlc/battery.htm
.
The 2 articles below I have just copied and pasted into this thread.....but they both seem to make sense...
Battery Care Guide...(from batteryprice.com)

When you first get your battery:
Run your rechargeable battery through at least 3 full charge/discharge cycles before putting it into ordinary service. This will help obtain maximum capacity of the battery.

Storing your battery:
Store your battery in a cool dry place. Do not leave your battery exposed to direct sunlight or temperatures below 30 degrees F and above 100 degrees F. Always discharge NiCd, NiMH and Li-Ion batteries before storing; and fully charge lead acid batteries before storing.

Charging your battery:
Rechargeable batteries will perform better when trickle charged. Rapid or Fast charging can be used with NiCd, NiMH and Li-IOn batteries, but you must be sure that your charger can handle the cell chemistry involved. Please consult your charger manufacturer's user guide for these specifications.

To calculate charge time for your battery, use the following equations:

Slow charger: (Cell capacity in mAh / Charging rate in mA) x 1.4 = Time in hours
Fast charger: (Cell capacity in mAh / Cahrging rate in mA) x 1.5 = Time in hours

For example if you have a 1700mAh battery and a charger charging at 700mA, you will need to charge the battery for approximately 3 1/2 hours.

Exercising your NiCd or NiMH battery:
Battery life will improve when you exercise your battery. To exercise a rechargeable NiCd or NiMH battery, first discharge the battery to 1 volt per cell (or until your equipment complains of "low battery"). (NiCd and NiMH batteries consist of 1.2 volts per cell - i.e. a 4.8 volt battery contains 4 cells). Finally, charge your battery with a trickle charge until fully charged. When fully charged a NiCd battery will show approximately 1.35 volts per cell, and a NiMH battery will show about 1.39 volts per cell.

NOTES on Battery Chemistries:

NiCd
Nickel-Cadmium rechargeable batteries are very durable and reliable. You may slow or fast charge most NiCd's, but some manufacturers make different types of cells specifically for rapid charging or specifically for slow charging. NiCd battery performance is improved dramatically by interspersing discharge pulses between charge pulses. This is known as "burp" or "reverse load" charging. This method of charging allows the battery to more efficiently degass while charging.

NiCd batteries should not be left in a charger for more than 30 hours. Also, NiCd batteries should not be subjected to shallow discharge (i.e. using the battery for a short period of time, then recharging). This type of use may result in crystalline formation inside the battery which will diminish performance. This is known as the "memory effect".

NiMH
Nickel-Metal Hydride rechargeable batteries are the next level up from NiCd. They offer up to 40% more run time per volume than NiCd. They are also more environmentally friendly. The biggest advantage of NiMH over NiCd is their ability to accept a charge at any time without suffering from the "memory effect". The memory effect does exist in NiMH, but the extent is a fraction of that in NiCd. The best way to charge NiMH batteries is either with the "burp" charging described above, or with a Delta V terminating charger. Before charging your NiMH battery, check with the charger manufacturer to make sure their charger can handle NIMH.

Li+ and Lithium Polymer
Lithium Ion and Lithium Polymer are the latest technologies in rechargeable batteries for portable equipment. They have the highest energy density among commercial batteries; twice that of NiCd. They also have a very low self-discharge rate.

Lithium based rechargeable batteries are the most expensive batteries available commercially. Disposal of lithium based batteries may cause some concern since any moisture which may creep into the cell after corrosion could present danger of explosion.
.
. **********************************************************************************************
Basic Ni-MH Battery Care another separate article, from a different site......

Ni-MH packs should be charged at a maximum rate of 4.5-5.0 amps until
warm (not hot), and used as soon as they are done charging for optimum
performance. If the pack sits for more than 10 minutes you will not get full
performance. You can “re-peak” a pack that has sat longer than 10 minutes
to improve performance (re-peak only once).
Some may tell you that it is good to get the packs a little hotter for racing
applications. This technique may offer slightly better initial performance,
but the long term effects are detrimental to the cells and is not recommended.
Delta Peak chargers (chargers that look for a voltage threshold to determine
when the charge cycle is complete) are not good for regular use with Ni-MH
cells, as this method causes excessive battery heating and results in internal
damage to the structure of the cell. Pulse chargers should never be used.
We recommend using the Novak Millennium Pro (#4490) or the Novak Ionic
(#4475) chargers in the Novak Ni-MH2 charge mode.
New Ni-MH cells often false-peak the first couple of times they are charged.
This is the nature of the Ni-MH cell. If the battery pack is not warm to the
touch, a false-peak has occurred, and the charge cycle should be re-started.

Batteries Used Weekly

Batteries that are used every week should be fairly easy to maintain. You can
either run the batteries down until the vehicle runs slowly, or discharge the
pack to 0.9 volts per cell (for a 6 cell pack that would be 5.4 volts) using a
quality discharger that has a cut-off voltage setting like the Novak Smart
Tray (#4500--available 3/2004). The Smart Tray is a digital microprocessorcontrolled
equalizing discharger that discharges each individual cell of the
battery pack with no risk of damaging the batteries, as each cell’s discharge
is shut off after reaching the preset cut-off voltage.
When the battery pack has cooled back down to room temperature, it can
safely be charged again for reuse. For the best performance, we recommend
no more than two (2) cycles per day.

Batteries Stored More Than 2 Weeks

If you do not use your batteries weekly, you will get better performance if
some care is taken before storing your packs. After using the packs for the
final time, put about 2-5 minutes of charge back into the batteries and then
store them. When you use the packs again, discharge them to 0.9 volts per
cell and let them cool completely before charging. The discharge before
charging will give the best performance and should help prevent false-peaking.
http://www.teamnovak.com
.
Ni-MH BATTERY CARE SHEET.....BUT..I am not so sure about THIS BIT though... ...THIS sounds like a sales pitch to me.....
I thought that only LiPo's needed this much care and attention

AD-NIMH-1 • 2/2004
Using Battery Equalizing Trays Before Charging

There are a numerous battery “equalizing” trays available from manufacturers
who all have different views on the usage & maintenance of Ni-MH
batteries. Through extensive testing, we have found that Ni-MH batteries
should not be discharged below 0.9 volts per cell, and that battery trays
can be very helpful in maintaining pack performance and consistency.
We highly recommend using an equalizing discharge tray that has a userselectable
cut-off voltage like the Novak Smart Tray (#4500). The Smart
Tray also features individual status LEDs to let you know when each cell has
completely discharged. Using the Novak Smart Tray before each charge
will give you the best possible performance from your batteries.
Packs That Continue To False-Peak
Some customers may experience false-peaks with sport packs, receiver packs,
or packs that have been previously abused or are very old. This can be due to
lower quality cells or the construction of the packs. The Ni-MH cells in these
packs are often never discharged properly so the cells can be very problematic.
The first thing that should be done for these packs is to discharge them and
let them cool completely. Next, charge them at a lower amp rate than
normal. When a false-peak occurs, try restarting the charger. If it the pack
continues to false-peak you may need to set the charger up differently.
The Ni-Cd Linear charge mode found in the Novak Millennium Pro and the
Novak Ionic chargers uses voltage threshold to determine the battery’s peak.
For a problematic Ni-MH pack, this may be the only way to get it to take a
full charge. Set the charger at your desired current with the voltage threshold
set to 4 mV/cell. If false-peaking continues, increase the voltage threshold
by 2 mV/cell. Do not exceed 10 mV/cell. If you reach this setting and
repeated false-peaking continues, you can activate the Trickle charge in the
Millennium Pro by turning this feature on in the Edit Charge mode. If a
false-peak occurs now, the trickle mode will continue to charge the pack at
a very slow rate. Let the trickle charge continue for about 10 minutes, then
restart the normal charge cycle. When the pack finishes the normal charge,
the trickle will start again, so make sure that you remove the battery from
the charger at the end of the main charge cycle (after it peaks) if it has
successfully charged and did not false-peak. Remember to turn off the trickle
charge function for future use.
.
Alb.

[ausf]

Dietrich, I may have posted before you, but you nailed it with the info. That helps myself and I'm sure many others, thanks for taking the time.

Madmonk, congrats on the charger/battery combo, good one.

[zhaktronz]

Turnigy 2s 30s 3500mah lipo is 15$ on hobbyking and a turnkey accucel charger is 30$. One f those will drive a tank for a good hour, if you need longer you can get an 8000mah lipo for 40$ or so.

[ausf]

Keep in mind that Lipos require a lot more care than a NiMH. They shouldn't be run below 3.7 v per cell, are considered dead at 3 v. It damaged, charged to quickly or overcharged, they can burst into flames. Car and house burning flames, plenty of photos and threads showing this.

I have one go up on me, a tiny 150mAh 1 cell. The connector broke on a hard landing,but I didn't see the damage. It was the end of the day, I tossed it in my pocket, these things are about an inch long, 1/4 inch thick. As I was getting into my car, my pocket was getting hot. I reached in a the thing was starting to smoke, I tossed it on the ground and it ruptured in flame. The hard landing created a short, and this tiny battery burst into flame 15 minutes later. Another minute, I would have been driving when it went up. Pretty freaking scary if you ask me.

If a 150 mAh does that, what do you think a 4200mAh would do?

I love them, but they have to be carefully stored and charged and there's no need to use them in tanks where weight isn't an issue. I'd rather just chuck a few NiMHs in a bag and go, not keeping batteries in a metal storage box, charging in a fireproof sack.

[Carnage]

Lipo''s requirering more care??? Then you are doing something wrong m8. I have been running Lipo''s for over 5 years in my cars, and recently switched over with my tanks as well. I currently run 5000Mah Zippy''s from hobbyking, they last about 3 to 3,5 hours in my KT.

Lipo''s are easy to maintain. If you use a decent charger, all you have to set is the Mah and the amount of cells being used, and the rest is automatically set. Lipo bags are indeed a must, cause i have seen one of them blow once, and they do a LOT of damage. Basicly all you have to do when you want to run your tank with Lipo''s is buy yourself a lipo buzzer.

Most lipo buzzers are set up to warn you at 3.2 or 3 volts per cell, wich is absolutely a safe voltage no matter what lipo you use. 3.7 volt per cell is absolute bollocks

With the right charger, that has an auto setting, overcharging is NOT possible, unless you mess up the settings. Lipo''s do not have memory, they can be charged whenever you want, you do not have to empty them before charging. The most important thing about lipo''s is that they do not lose power when almost running empty, unlike NiMH.

The + on lipo''s outweigh the - in my opinion. All it takes is a little common sence.

Don''t forget, i have seen a NiMH blow up as well, and they just explode in to little shrapnell.

[FreakyDude]

The internet abounds with stories of lipo's that have caused fires and have exploded. Any battery can cause an issue but everyone must admit Lipos are more sensitive to the care required for their proper use and storage.
in this thread the user is admitting to being a new tanker and is looking for information on all batteries as he admits his knowledge needs to be brought up to snuff. kudos to madmonk for asking for help.
Casual advice on lipos is not the place to start, they have requirements and really need to be treated with care.
it doesn't take much searching to find where homes have been set ablaze and explosions have caused significant damage.
Madmonk buy yourself a 4,000 or 5,300 mah nimh battery, you will drive your tank for a couple hours on one charge but the batteries are less expensive and much much safer as are the chargers, If needed I can send you a link for low cost high quality batteries.
Once your comfortable then research lipos on both the care and use, charging settings etc.
Safety first, you only get one set of fingers and hands.

[madmonk25]

its ok i value the help.it does not matter if people are talking about battery packs i have not got to yet. i am happy with the upgraded batteries that i got myself. i think at this time nah nimh are good for me . i got in the end two 4.500s in the end and they last a long time.i am picking everyones brains on here because i like to understand my hobby well. so one day when i can afford a top line tank i do not make mistakes with it like you do in the early days in your hobby.i am grateful for everyones input here . thanks