Lively Debate

[The Tank Man]

well said!

[Saxondog]

Once Again I have posted "DATA" and real first hand experience from the "CREWS" on this subject. I can debate this issue just from the books on hand,and from the History of both sides.

Russians lost 83.500 tanks/AFV' on the Eastern Front

Germany Lost 25,584 Tanks/Afv on the Eastern Front

The Numbers are clear "DATA" of the base argument,the German's Quality was the factor for their success,and their crew training.

Ants the smallest of creatures will overcome a larger creature if the creature has no where to run and the ants have time to cover the creature. Result a lot of dead ants and one dead larger creature.

Below,the very unit and Tank of my first model the Tiger S13, and the result of their combat.

The period 7 - 19 March 1943 was described in Germany's Tiger Tanks by Thomas Jentz. During this period GD's Tigers saw action in the Poltawa-Belgorad area, beginning at 0615 on 7 March. There was reason to be optimistic; Tiger crews reported first round hits at ranges of 600 to 1000 metres with frontal penetration of T-34 tanks, with these penetrations even resulting in the destruction of the engine at the rear of the tank. It was found that few T-34s were made to burn when hit from the front, but in 4 of 5 instances of shots from the same ranges striking the hull side of the T-34, towards the rear, or actually hitting the rear of the tank itself, the fuel tanks were made to explode. A report indicated that " Even at ranges of 1500 meters and longer, during favorable weather, it is possible to succeed in penetrating the T-34 with minimal expenditure of ammunition."

Another report by GD Tigers told of a scout patrol by two Tigers encountering 20 Russian tanks to their front, with other tanks attacking from their rear. Both Tigers were hit at least 10 times by Russian armour piercing shells mostly of 76.2 mm size, at ranges of 500 - 1000 metres. No penetrations were achieved on the Tigers, and even hits on the Tiger's running gear that tore away suspension arms did not prove to be immobilizing. The two Tigers managed to knock out 10 enemy tanks within fifteen minutes.

From this last paragraph the life of the T34 crew member after meeting a Tiger at 10/1 odds was 1.5 minutes.I'm in the Tiger because I want to live a bit longer.
http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/tigers.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

German Losses Russian Losses Kill/Loss Ratio
1941 2,758 20,500 7.43
1942 2,648 15,000 5.66
1943 6,362 22,400 3.52
1944 6,434 16,900 2.63
1945 7,382 8,700 1.18
Total 25,584 83,500 3.26

http://www.alanhamby.com/losses.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What more information is required,if Germany has equal production the Allies would of been hopelessly "out gunned"and hopelessly "under equipped"to fight a German Armor force so well equipped with such superior Armor.

Saxondog

[Saxondog]

My Knowledge comes from Reading,no ever being in a Tank in my life,and the main subject I can speak about with vast knowledge is the subject of Naval Warfare.

But I have read a few books on Armor,and yes they are books about German Armor and Grossdeutschland Divisions. Eastern Front warfare and the actions of that the worlds largest battlefield.

Imagine a D-DAY without Germany ever fighting on the Eastern Front, 25,000 German AFV'S more than the allies were faced with,the Air power of the Germans not depleted by the Eastern Front as well.

2,000,000 more men,vast amounts of resources not spent in the East. And above all else the very thing the allies victory depended on,an depleted force,devoid of the expertly trained crews.

Yes the Eastern Front provided experience for the German Tank Crews,yet without that front their certainly would have been Victory in North Africa and the European war would of been totally changed,and D-DAY would have never happened.

D-day did happen,Germany did lose the War. And German Armor did destroy more tanks and AFV than they ever produced. The war was won by superior production and not superior equipment.

[Carnage]

Ants the smallest of creatures will overcome a larger creature if the creature has no where to run and the ants have time to cover the creature. Result a lot of dead ants and one dead larger creature.

Thats one for the books Excellent way of putting it.

[The Tank Man]

I'll second that well said!!

[Saxondog]

Thanks guys, I am pleased with myself on this one. I do have another debatable question, given a choice of which tank to be in to face 10 to 1 odds which would you chose and why??

My choice is a Tiger,Mid-production with the loader periscope and new command copula hatch,yet retaining the Road wheels and the original gun site.Simply put the Fire power of the Tiger,and the proven HL230 Engine with a competent crew.3000m armor piercing death.

Firepower
Primary weapon 8.8cm Kw.K. 36 L/56 rifled cannon
Muzzle velocity 600m/second (HE)
773m/second (AP)
930m/second (AP/tungsten core)
Effective range 3000 m with armour piercing and 5000 m with HE rounds
Capacity 92 rounds, sometimes modified to carry 106 or 120
Gun sight TZF9b 2.5x, 24°, later TZF9c
Elevation -6.5° - +17°
Traverse 360° (hydraulic and hand traverse)
Traverse speed 25 to 60 seconds depending on engine speed
Firing height 2.195m
Secondary weapons 2 x 7.92mm MG-34 (1 coaxial in turret, one in ball mount)
Ammunition 4800 x 7.92mm
Gun sight K.Z.F.2 (1.8x 18°)
Elevation -10° - +20°
Traverse 15° both sides (hand traverse)

And the best armor protection,even the drivers view slot had an armor shutter for battle situations. Just give me a Tiger and an open space,the 88 will do the rest.


Armor type Rolled homogeneous nickel-steel plate
electro-welded interlocking-plate construction
Hull front 100mm (3.94in) @ 24°
Hull side (upper) 80mm (3.15in) @ 0°
Hull side (lower) 60mm (2.36in) @ 0°
Hull rear 80mm (3.15in) @ 8°
Hull top 25mm (0.98in) @ 90°
Hull bottom 25mm (0.98in) @ 90°
Turret front 100mm (3.94in) @ 8°
Gun mantlet 120mm (4.72in) @ 0°
Turret sides 80mm (3.15in) @ 0°
Turret rear 80mm (3.15in) @ 0°
Turret top 25mm (0.98in) later 40-45mm (1.57-1.77in) @ 81-90°


Thanks to this site for the specs. http://www.alanhamby.com/technical.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[The Tank Man]

I think you have killed off the Devils advocate!!!!