Ok So my build thread has kind of turned into a lively debate on German vs Everbody else's Armour.
I myself think WWII German ( And to a Degree current ie Leapord 2) tanks were the best. The only failing was production and I believe this was caused more from constant bombing than anything else.
German tanks were
- Argueably reliable, the first versions did have teething problems but every product made does, nothing is made perfect first time through the plant.
My point here is if you really look at historical data the Panzer IV, Panther, Tiger 1, and KT were all as reasonably made product as reliable as any war time vehicle
- Not Argueable Effective - I won't even talk about this, One shot kills at 4 km.... That is amazing especially given the time period. Their guns might actually even be as effective as modern 120mm guns.
- Speed - Generally the Tiger and KT were slower but it is not like they were turtles. For their size they were dang close to matching speed with most allied tanks. The Panther on the other hand was as quick or quicker than most allied tanks.
Protection - Need to say nothing here, The Tiger and KT were from the front invunerable until very late in the war, but even then the allied tanks could be taken on at ridiculous ranges and the allies needed packs of 4 to 6 tanks to ensure the ability to get in close enough to attempt a kill. The Panther although not as heavily armoured did have the advantage with the exception of the heavier IS series. The IS series did have some issues matching the Panthers effectiveness.
Please discuss, opinions and facts please but lets keep the opinions nice
Freakydude, I would make the suggestion to move your old thread that got totally trashed to the "other builds" section.. And re-start it...A shame it happened, I enjoyed the updates on a seriously good scratch build
PS starting another thread on the subject will not keep it from continuing in the original post
Jaybrd I probably will need to inflame the allied tanker peeps to get this thread going lol I trust everyone will be mature.
See some are saying because German tanks have some hull exposed above the track that makes them more easily killed.
I ask anybody though wether your hull is above or below the tracks does it matter?? Me thinks not.
With the quality of the optics Germany had I believe they could and did pick general spots on allied tanks for the hits. Even though it is more likely that they just said shoot it because it was not a requirement to hit any allied tank in a specific spot to achieve a kill.
The overall height arguement is a pretty lapse one as well because most Allied tanks were within a foot or two in height comparison to German Armour as well. At 500 meters ( 1500 feet or so )I do not believe you can tell the difference between a 3 meter or a 2.44 meter object.
For arguement sake if you can tell the difference then I suggest that German camouflage made the difference then
they don't call me freaky for nothing
Its not the tanks so much as the crews.a bad crew in a good tank = a dead tank. At the start the Germans had good crews and tanks. Then later on in the war they were miss used but the powers to be.
Also later on in the war it was all about numbers. Good crews by this time were thin on the ground as the germans were attacking too many fronts at the same time.
As an E.g. here is what 6 tanks with good crews in them could do.
"Wittmann in Villers Bocage"
On 13th June 1944, a week after D-day, following a drive from Beauvais under repeated air attack, 2nd Kompanie of sSSPzAbt 101 led by Michael Wittmann had 6 Tigers located in the area of Hill (Point) 213 ahove Villers Bocage. His orders were to stop the advance of the 22nd Armored Brigade of the British 7th Armored Division (the famous 'Desert Rats') from advancing through the township, outflanking the German line and gaining the road to Caen. Wittmann's company hidden behind a hedgerow spotted the enemy column, which passed him at a distance of 200 meters. At about 8:00am, Wittmann attacked the British column on the main road, while the rest of his company (4 Tigers as one brokedown) attacked the British forces around Hill 213. Soon after, Wittmann destroyed Sherman Firefly and Cromwell IV and headed south to attack the rest of the enemy transport column. After knocking out 8 half-tracks, 4 Bren Carriers and 2 6 pdr anti-tank guns, Wittmann reached the crossroad with the road to Tilly-sur-Seulles. At the crossroad, he destroyed 3 Stuart tanks from recon unit and reached the outskirts of the town of Villers-Bocage. While in town, Wittmann destroyed 4 Cromwell IV tanks and single half-track and turns into Rue Pasteur. Following up the street, he knocked out Cromwell IV and Sherman OP tank, reaching the main street of Villers-Bocage. At the end of Rue Pasteur, Wittmann's Tiger was hit by Sherman Firefly from B Squadron and he decided to turn back as being too far forward without any infantry support and in a build-up area. He turned in the direction of Caen to join the rest of his company. On his way back, Wittmann's Tiger was attacked by another Cromwell IV, which he destroyed as well. Back at the Tilly crossroad, British soldiers from 1st Rifle Brigade opened fire at Wittmann with their 6 pdr anti-tank gun, immobilizing his Tiger. Wittmann and his crew managed to escape on foot towards the Panzer Lehr positions 7km away near Orbois. The rest of his company at the Hill 213, destroyed the rest of the A Squadron of 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment ("Sharpshooters") including 5 Cromwell IV and Sherman Firefly, while capturing 30 men. During this short engagement, Wittmann's company destroyed 4 Sherman Firefly, 20 Cromwell, 3 Stuart, 3 M4 Sherman OP, 14 half-tracks, 16 Bren Carriers and 2 6 pdr anti-tank guns. Wittmann's attack was followed by another one by Tigers of Hauptsturmfuehrer Rolf Moebius' 1st Kompanie of sSSPzAbt 101 and Panzerkampfwagen IV tanks from Panzer Lehr but was repulsed by anti-tank guns from 22nd Armored Brigade. Following day, British withdrew from the town leaving it to the Germans, who occupied it for next two months. The British drive on Villers Bocage and Caen was stopped cold by Wittmann's attack and following actions.
Last edited by caddyshack on Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on.
caddyshack wrote:Its not the tanks so much as the crews.a bad crew in a good tank = a dead tank. At the start the gremans had good crews and tanks. Then later on in the war they were miss used but the powers to be.
Also later on in the war it was all about numbers. Good crews by this time were thin on the ground as the germans were attacking too many fronts at the same time.
Very very true.. You know I get frustrated watching "greatest tank battles" when you listen to the one German guy talk about getting mob killed by a phosphorous grenade and counting 21 hits before they caught fire and abandoned the vehicle... and I say again... I think to myself WHY DID YOU NOT ENGAGE THAT POSITION!!! if they can hit you you sure as heck should be able to supress at minimum right? Superior equipment is only with a matching crew, countless battles / wars prove it..
Oh. and don't forget the Barkman...
December 25 he was seriously wounded. During the Ardennes Offensive, Barkmann's Panther Ausf G (Nr 401) drove into the group of American tanks from the US 2nd Armored Division. Despite being outnumbered, Barkmann managed to knock out a few Sherman tanks. One Sherman rammed Barkmann's Panther but did not cause much damage, although both tanks got stuck and the Panther's engine stalled. After a few minutes, Barkmann's mechanic managed to restart the engine and Panther retreated with a blocked turret. Despite the damage, Barkmann knocked out a pursuing Sherman and retreated to safety, although his Panther was beyond repair.
(exposed hull and all...... )
Have you guys ever read through the allied intel sheet on german tanks? Here are a couple you might find interesting....
Well let me think for a min...trying to read all of that just makes my feet hurt...i guess what you are trying to say is..unless we all think like you do. Well were just all wrong or not going down the right road.
Well we my not all be walking libraries but i think we do have opinions. If for some reason you can type yours out. Am damn if am going to plough through endless text on countless sites. Just to argue, this that and the other with you. At the end of the day stats can be turned round to read which every way people at the time wanted them to. That stand to the present day. We were talking about the crews, but you want just to go down the road of every weak point on a tank right down to the nut and bolt. Well every tank has one even today. What we were say was the biggest one of those was the crew.
But i guess you kind of missed what we were talking about at that time.
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on.
I've not been in to tanks long (6 months ) but from what i've read, I get the impression that Germans had a better all round package. Not a single one advantage. To summerise German
More reliable tanks
Better equipped tanks (although various on time of combat and allied forces)
Better radio and communication
Better tactics and training
Air support to napalm the enemy
For the allies
Greater numbers
Some situations where tanks better
mustclime you need to re-read your links. The first one is just basic fluff about the how heavy the Tiger is. It is a Heavy Tank so I can agree with that.
The second link actually talks about a battle where it took 5 count em 5 artillery hits before they had full armour penetration from what 680 yds. Now in total they hit the tank what 8 times before they stopped it.
At this point how long would it have taken to kill a Sherman? One shot, A T-34 one shot etc etc
The vulnerable spots of the Tiger as published by your comrades is kind of funny. Every tank has weak spots but what I see is the Soviets are telling their troops to target pretty small areas, it would take a commander with considerable amount of vodka in his system to try and hit a 10mm vision slit in active tank on tank warfare.
Your posts go on about standard tank attack and defence. All armies in WWII accepted that artillery and airforces were the best combatant to win tank warfare.
My point is TANK on TANK German made the best Armour period from 1941 to 1945. Heck I will even give you a 3 to 1 advantage and my money still rests on any of Germany's big three. Panther, King Tiger or the Tiger 1
OK, let me put forward a couple simple facts.
1)There are no modern main battle tanks with fwd and a rear mount drivetrain....none, there is the Merkava but it is fwd and ft mount drive train and they did that in a large part because they wanted to be able to deploy a couple troops from the rear in urban combat.
2) Having the power plant in the rear and the transmission in the front causes a lot Issues, here is a list....
a) you fill up the crew compartment with transmissions, if you have to pull the transmission out to service/replace it( very common because the transmissions were not designed for the weight of the tanks ) you have to pull the access panel that has the 2 crew hatches, pull all the crew compartment out, unhook the trans from the final drives and drive shaft , spin the trans 90 degrees and hoist it out of the access hole.....you think this is a simple task?
b) The final drives are in the front of the tank, this is a major weekness.....Now I do not expect a lot of you to know what a finale drive is. So here is a little clip from the tank overhaul overhaul show made around the Littlefield Panther rebiuld...
Contrary to what a lot of people think, those front drive wheels do not mount on some big steel bars and slip into the transmission. They are on big axles that end into a big gear and is bolted into the finale drives( as you saw a, some big gears all meshed together). If you bump into something at an angle( like a big tree or a big rock) with the front drive wheel, BOOM! that almost 4 foot lever arm that is the drive wheel will destroy the finale drive. Needless to say that if some Sherman hits a ft drive wheel, well that finale drive is most likely toast as well. That was one of the things i was trying to get across in the links up above. The allies knew this, So people can go on all day how a Sherman with a 75mm gun could not kill a tiger from the front even at point blank range. I Sherman could hit a front drive wheel and turn a tiger into a great big pillbox. Think the allies did not aim for the finale drives/ front drive wheels??....have you seen the tank overhaul show on the Elephant? Seems a Sherman stopped the tank with a shot to the front drive wheel.....
)
) but from what i've read, I get the impression that Germans had a better all round package. Not a single one advantage. To summerise German 
