Watched a great doco recently on the Challeneger tank and it got me thinking?
With all things being equal, conditions, support, training etc. I am wondering if
a single Abrams came up against a single Chellenger who would win. Does one
machine have an obvious avantage over the other? Or would it be down to simply
luck which came out on top?
Challenger V Abrams
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Ex_Pat_Tanker
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Re: Challenger V Abrams
Luck probably!
The 120mm rifled gun of the Chally 2 holds the record for longest tank on tank kill (Chally 1 firing a HESH round during the 1st gulf war - well over 2 miles) But no tank in the world has ever proved it can resist a Depleted Uranium tipped APFS-DS round.
The Abrams has better acceleration due to its gas turbine engine, but the Chally 2 has better endurance due to it having a conventional V12 Perkins diesel motor, and its cooler exhaust plume allows infantry to shelter behind the tank (a common complaint with the Abrams) and it can tow another Chally 2 indefinitely, where as the Abrams tends to 'cook off' the tank it's towing due to the hot exhaust (plenty of burned out Abrams photo's on the web prove this!)
If on extended operations like the British army faced in North Africa during WW2, my money is on the Chally 2 being the better tank - fuel economy is not something the Abrams is known for...
The Chally 2 is not totally indestructable, but given a choice that didn't include the Merkava IV, I would take the Chally 2 over the Abrams
The 120mm rifled gun of the Chally 2 holds the record for longest tank on tank kill (Chally 1 firing a HESH round during the 1st gulf war - well over 2 miles) But no tank in the world has ever proved it can resist a Depleted Uranium tipped APFS-DS round.
The Abrams has better acceleration due to its gas turbine engine, but the Chally 2 has better endurance due to it having a conventional V12 Perkins diesel motor, and its cooler exhaust plume allows infantry to shelter behind the tank (a common complaint with the Abrams) and it can tow another Chally 2 indefinitely, where as the Abrams tends to 'cook off' the tank it's towing due to the hot exhaust (plenty of burned out Abrams photo's on the web prove this!)
If on extended operations like the British army faced in North Africa during WW2, my money is on the Chally 2 being the better tank - fuel economy is not something the Abrams is known for...
The Chally 2 is not totally indestructable, but given a choice that didn't include the Merkava IV, I would take the Chally 2 over the Abrams
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AndyD
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Re: Challenger V Abrams
I read somewhere that no Chally had ever been lost in combat, except for a blue on blue involving another chally; whereas the Abrams has been the victim on more than one occasion.
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Panzerman
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Re: Challenger V Abrams
Thank you all very interesting!
Re: Challenger V Abrams
It seems to me the US Army and the military industrial complex has not changed much since WWII, build a good tank, and alot of them. Overwhelm the enemy with numbers. Where the British have fewer resources and build in more quality, or strength. Just a observation, Saxondog
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tankmad
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Re: Challenger V Abrams
There are probably four or five tanks in the world that could win a one on one on each other it would all be down to the reaction of the crew to get the first hit.
Stevie
Stevie
Re: Challenger V Abrams
Challenger 2
M1A2 SEP
Leopard 2A6
Leclerc
T90
Type 90
Ariete
Merkava IV
Best modern tanks to date? (Not in any order - just as I remembered!) Not sure what else is out there!!
I love modern tanks almost as much as WWII tanks, wish Tamiya would fill in the gap with a decent one in 1/16th!
M1A2 SEP
Leopard 2A6
Leclerc
T90
Type 90
Ariete
Merkava IV
Best modern tanks to date? (Not in any order - just as I remembered!) Not sure what else is out there!!
I love modern tanks almost as much as WWII tanks, wish Tamiya would fill in the gap with a decent one in 1/16th!
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wibblywobbly
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Re: Challenger V Abrams
I asked pretty much the same question of one of the Chally crew at Bovvy last year.
"What would you improve if you had the chance?"
His response, it makes no difference. Every time anyone creates better armour, someone else creates a new weapon that will penetrate it. Tank battles are a thing of the past, there is no requirement for large tanks anymore. At the end of the day no tank in the world can withstand an air borne missile attack"
I also asked him what the stats were for Challys and Abrams lost. He advised me that 2 Challengers and 180+ Abrams had been knocked out. As mentioned above, one of the Challys was knocked out by another one whilst the crew were sleeping on the rear deck. The other was an IED that blew up through the drivers floor.
I then asked him if I was correct in assuming that the 'kill' is down to who gets their target locked on first. He confirmed this. Modern automated gun sights etc mean that once the target is located you can do what you want with the tank, the shell (or bullet as he called it) would always strike.
The last thing is that if you stop you are pretty much finished, artillery can triangulate the last known firing position even if they can't see you, and they will simply drop shells on the spot...so it's always fire and move immediately.
Hope that contributes something to the discussion
Rob G
"What would you improve if you had the chance?"
His response, it makes no difference. Every time anyone creates better armour, someone else creates a new weapon that will penetrate it. Tank battles are a thing of the past, there is no requirement for large tanks anymore. At the end of the day no tank in the world can withstand an air borne missile attack"
I also asked him what the stats were for Challys and Abrams lost. He advised me that 2 Challengers and 180+ Abrams had been knocked out. As mentioned above, one of the Challys was knocked out by another one whilst the crew were sleeping on the rear deck. The other was an IED that blew up through the drivers floor.
I then asked him if I was correct in assuming that the 'kill' is down to who gets their target locked on first. He confirmed this. Modern automated gun sights etc mean that once the target is located you can do what you want with the tank, the shell (or bullet as he called it) would always strike.
The last thing is that if you stop you are pretty much finished, artillery can triangulate the last known firing position even if they can't see you, and they will simply drop shells on the spot...so it's always fire and move immediately.
Hope that contributes something to the discussion
Rob G
Tiger 1 Late
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M36 B1
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M36 B1
Re: Challenger V Abrams
I read about the Chally 2 on wikipedia, very interseting and as you say its states one blue on blue and the other an IED.
Reading Sniper One at the moment, awesome book, well written, and it goes on about a mission where 24 Warriors and 6 chally 2's were ambushed by some RPG nuts jobs en route and they all bounced off the front armour!
One was hit with around 80 RPG's and still carried on wreaking havoc! Modern armour is now at least a match for the RPG at most ranges/angles if attack!
Reading Sniper One at the moment, awesome book, well written, and it goes on about a mission where 24 Warriors and 6 chally 2's were ambushed by some RPG nuts jobs en route and they all bounced off the front armour!
One was hit with around 80 RPG's and still carried on wreaking havoc! Modern armour is now at least a match for the RPG at most ranges/angles if attack!
