M3 Grant (Lee?) scratchbuilt... or that's the plan anyway...

[Rob1970]

People always tell me I shouldn't have so many projects on the go. "Just focus on finishing one thing, -then- move on to the next..." 

Well... those people suck. And they smell. Of poo! Big meanie poopie heads that don't know what they are talking abou.... oooh... something shiny....

Yeah... my inner child is a little bastard... always getting me in trouble. That combined with the attention span of a stunned goldfish will lead to me starting stuff. Like... a lot of stuff. So while I am waiting for some parts for the Firefly to arrive (18 channel slip ring, new LEDs and some other assorted goodies...) I went on the hunt for a donor Sherman for a BARV. Yes, a BARV...



Nooo... not Barf... a BARV!



Yes, that... almost just as big and just as ugly. In a cool kinda way. I mean, what's not to like about a tank that actually has "Deploy Diver!" among the list of commands...

Unfortunately (?) I couldn't find a cheap donor Sherman to brutalize for the bits I needed, and the cost of buying what I needed to start from the bottom up was running into the silly numbers. And then I got this letter from work. With a check for a nice bonus. Seems I did something right...

...and I pulled the trigger on a full Sherman. Metal tracks, drive wheels and idlers wheels. Steel gearbox. Running TK6.0S. All the shinies. Much to shiny too bastardize into a BARV, if I'm honest. But there is another tank on my list...

The Humble Lee. Or rather; Grant. I kinda fancy more British stuff in my arsenal. I had been looking at the Vandra kit for a while now, and it looks nice. I have a lot of reference material on my computer and while researching I came across this...


A 1/25 scale paper model... I have a bunch of those on my harddrive.


All the parts are there. And what is the Grant but a big metal box with an attitude? So, I'm going to start by making a mock-up. Some clever math and printing will get me a fair way into making the parts for the hull. I've got a pile of 3mm foamboard, and I'm not afraid to use it...

To Be Continued...

TTFN,
Rob

[jee]

hmm, that BARV looks like a failed submarine, to save it they put some tracks under it and with a straight face declared this is how we designed it

But looking forward to your built of the M3.

By any mistake, do you have a possibility to send me those 1/25 paper things (not only the M3)? I am quit interested actually.

[Rob1970]

By any mistake, do you have a possibility to send me those 1/25 paper things (not only the M3)? I am quit interested actually.

I've collected a -lot- of that kind of thing over the years as PDF files. PM me your email address and I will see about zipping them to you. I have a paper model of a BARV too, but I will direct you to the seller of that one. He deserves the income as a struggling artist. You can find it at https://murphs-models.webs.com

[jee]

Yeah, bought the halftrack

[Barmonkey]

I can't wait to see this one. The flat plates used on the M3 should make for a easy build. I suppose the turret may be a bit of a challenge to work out

I have plans to make an early Stug III from the same series of paper model plans. It should be much easier than the M3 because nothing is round and I only need to build the middle/top where the PIII turret would sit.

[lmcq11]

A word of caution, there is nothing easy about building an M3. The armor and turret have complex shapes and all vendors that sell conversion kits got it wrong, shapes and dimensions. Creating an M3 chassis with early type bogies from an M4 is also very complicated. However, most people seem to be happy with a M3 model that looks like an M3 from far away. For some reasons, that seem to work for the M3 but not for German armor.

[Rob1970]

A word of caution, there is nothing easy about building an M3. The armor and turret have complex shapes and all vendors that sell conversion kits got it wrong, shapes and dimensions. Creating an M3 chassis with early type bogies from an M4 is also very complicated. However, most people seem to be happy with a M3 model that looks like an M3 from far away. For some reasons, that seem to work for the M3 but not for German armor.

Well, you know what they say; "If it walks like a duck and qaucks like a duck it probably -is- a duck." Or a collection of very small gnomes in a duck suit... but I digress...

I've been doing a lot of reading of other people's builds of the M3 Lee, most of them based on the Heng Long M4A3 and the Vandra kit. Some people go for a Mato lower body. Some people leave the bogies -as is-, some people rebuild them to match the look of a Lee bogey. Personally I always build any model for -me-. If I am happy I don't care all that much what anyone else thinks of my creation. That said; my own standards are reasonably high...

There's a lot of people mentioning that the Vandra Lee turret is undersized. And by a fair bit. This is (often) based on comparison to a scale static scale model, and frankly not a bad way to go about it. Only caveat is; just how accurate is the scale model? Where did Tamiya or MiniArt their information from? All things to consider.

I've decided for my info to use a few sources.

• The 1/25 scale GPM model (I believe it's from 1996)
• The 1/35 scale Tamiya M3 Lee MkI (vintage 1974 technology...)
• Several Blueprints found online (http://www.the-blueprints.com)
• Several pictures found online
• My own Eyeball MkI (vintage 1970 with some small upgrades...)

Now, I consider none of these sources to be perfect. That said; nowadays a lot of scale model manufacturers actually take Laser- and Lidar-scan of the models before they commit them to CAD and the actual making of the molds. So there is a good chance a fairly recent model kit from new molds is pretty decent in the accuracy department.

I started with sourcing some measurements from the Vandra kit. My source (Thank you, Bob!) informed me that the hull width is 163mm overall and 65mm high. This meshes nicely with the Heng Long hull. The Vandra made Lee turret was stated as being 80mm in diameter (not counting the flared bit at the bottom or the ring on the hull).


I did some MATH! Taking the 1/25 scale GPM model and printing it out at 1.2 gave me hull sides exactly 65mm high, and an overall hull width of not 163mm but 165mm. Now personally I am fine with this, since it allows the material of the hull (if you use 2mm sheets...) to fall down over the sides of the Heng Long lower hull which is about 161ish mm, just like the original HL Sherman upper hull does. So for my calculations I will be using an overall hull wight of 165mm. The top of the hull front to back measures in at 148mm on the paper model, and the turret measures in at a large 100mm. That's a lot more than 80mm... but it could be a fluke?


Now good, straight-on pictures of any tank are rare, and the Lee is no exception. I did find one. I drew in the turret edge, taking into account distortion from the slight angle of the picture, took my base measurement of 165mm for the hull width, and did more MATH! The top of the hull front to back this time measures in at 144mm, and the turret measures in at an equally large 99 to 103mm, depending if you take the inside or outside of the white circle I drew. Again, that's a lot more than 80mm... but could -again- be a fluke? There is distortion, even from the slight angle this picture was taken at...


I took the 1/35 Tamiya M3 Lee MkI upper hull, and my trusty digital callipers. Not messing around on this one. Converted my measurments to get to the base 165 width I used for ease of comparison. 165 divided by 75.8 gives me 2.1767870026. The top of the hull front to back this time measures in at 66 times 2.1767870026 equals 143.6675461741mm. For the turret that give me 2.1767870026 times 45.9 = 99.9142480211mm... I mean... disregarding the silly amount of decimals... that's a lot of flukes... An embarrasment of flukes. A real flukepocalypse...


Just for Schlitz and giggles I grabbed a blueprint I found online and did my same trick... Base hull width of 165mm and extrapolate from that... The top of the hull front to back now measures in at 151mm, and the turret measures in at 102mm...

So yeah, I'm calling it. Turret diameter for a Lee is 100mm at scale 1/16. There, all in black and white on the page. FIGHT ME IF YOU DARE!!! So that's what I will be scratchbuilding. Is that good? Well, yes and no. Means I can't use the Vandra Grant turret. Which is... bad? I'm not even sure about that since I found this last night...


That's a 3D model (STL-file) of a M3 Grant. And it's pretty accurate. So if I separate the turret and other choice bits from the model, I can print them myself... Options!! Brought to you by MATH!

To Be Continued...

TTFN,
Rob

[Kaczor]

For some reasons, that seem to work for the M3 but not for German armor.

I couldn't agree. Some are happy with their stock and full of errors Tigers (not to mention Pantigers )

M3 Lee was always on my bucket list but Vandra model is disappointing. There was once a announcement of a Chinese full metal M3 but probably it will cost a fortune and still won't be accurate.

[Rob1970]

There was once a announcement of a Chinese full metal M3 but probably it will cost a fortune and still won't be accurate.

Well, you were right about the price...
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003229529733.html



Just my two cents; Looks like a Heng Long Sherman M4A3 lower hull judging by the rear doors and exhaust placement. To me it looks like they cut the return roller and the tops of the HL bogeys and added a piece with a new return roller. That roller is too small, and the pins on the tracks hit the axle/mount of that roller.

In short; it's crap. In long; It's pricey crap.

[Kaczor]

Holy shit what a rusted piece of junk. And the price id after 50% discount