Cromwell outclimbs Sherman M4..

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43rdRecceReg
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Cromwell outclimbs Sherman M4..

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

Twiddling my thumbs while I await some essential bits for my Cromwell build from Stian (Maxmekker..and I mean Norwegian chocolate, of course :D ). Just leafing idly though Youtube webpages, when I came across this fascinating little clip showing the Cromwell and Centaur variants competing with a Sherman M4 on an obstacle course. If only the 17- pounder had fitted the Cromwell. Pity we had to wait for the Cromwell to morph into the Comet, :think: before we had one of the best tanks on in the European theatre of operations... :thumbup: The trial would have been even more revealing with sound, but alas it's not there. :-<
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Re: Cromwell outclimbs Sherman M4..

Post by Roboticus_Prime »

This is due to the limitations of the bogey suspension compared to the Christie/Torsion bar suspension. The two biggest factors is road wheel diameter and travel. The bigger road wheels have a much easier time rolling over obstacles, and the greater travel allows more wheels to stay on the ground for better traction.

The bogey suspension is not without it's advantages though. The Sherman's VVSS and HVSS for example if one of those were damaged, you only needed to unbolt the bogey, bolt on a new one, and away you go. The Christie suspension often required removing Tracks, multiple road wheels, and even the side armor on some tanks.

The Chieftain goes into this in his Tanks 101. The relevant section starts at 19.28, but the whole video is awesome.

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Re: Cromwell outclimbs Sherman M4..

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

Yes, I've been a fan of the Chieftain's contributions for some time. Quite where he got that 'anatomical' picture of the Cromwell's suspension, I don't know; but it's very revealing. What he doesn't say, though, is that the armour plate that makes the Cromwell's suspension system hard to get at for maintenance purposes, also supplied extra protection for the crew in their cramped fighting compartment (trade off of space for safety), and protection for the crucial suspension components too.
Here's a bit more info on the trials. It shows that the Cromwell of that time (still under development and with oil seal leak issues, and other problems that should have been rectified), needed twice the number of man-hours
in maintenance than the Sherman. However, in action, the Cromwell offered better crew protection (up to 100mm armour in later iterations, even without the sloped glacis- and comparable with the Tiger-), was infinitely faster and more manoeuvrable, and had had the same gun, effectively as the Sherman. Better yet, it didn't have the skyscraper profile of the Sherman; and so it was much harder to hit...except when trapped in a street
in Normandy township (infamously.. :thumbdown: ). Apparently, the six-pounder (57mm) anti-tank gun it was originally fitted with, had better penetrating capabilities than the Sherman 75mm, but lacked an effective HE shell. The bored out 6-pounder then morphed into a 75mm with the same characteristics as the Sherman: a 'doorknocker', when meeting the Tiger...

Trials:
"...The first real field test of the design was carried out in August–September 1943, when examples of the Centaur, Cromwell, Sherman M4A2 (diesel engine) and Sherman M4A4 (multi-bank petrol engine) were all tested in Exercise Dracula, a 2,000 mile long trip around Britain. The Shermans proved to be the most reliable, by far, requiring 420 hours of specialist fitter attention over a total distance travelled of 13,986 miles (22,508 km). This corresponds to 0.03 hours per mile. In comparison, the Cromwells drove 11,582 miles (18,639 km) and required 814 hours, or 0.07 hours per mile. The Centaur managed only 8,492 miles (13,667 km) due to constant breakdown, and required 742 hours, or 0.087 hours per mile..." (Quoted from Wikiwand, in turn a reference to David Fletcher's 'Cromwell Cruiser Tank 1942-50')

The Cromwell and Centaur were given additional time to work out these problems. The Cromwell's problems were mostly related to oil leaks and brake and clutch failures, an observer noting that these were well-known and should already have been corrected. The crews, however, expressed their love for the design, and especially its speed and handling.
On the plus side though:

"...The gearbox had five forward and one reverse gears. The first gear was for "confined spaces, on steep inclines or...sharp turns". The transmission was the new Merrit-Brown Z.5, which offered differential steering without clutching or braking, a major advance on previous designs. It gave the Cromwell superb maneuverability, with only the German Tiger I, using a similar design, able to match it..." (From Wikiwand)

This 40MPH tank could also outmanoeuvre the opposition with speed and agility. Final drive reduced top speed to 32 MPH to preserve the gearboxes, but even so apparently on one occasion:
"..Cromwell was the fastest British tank to serve in the Second World War, with a top speed of 40 mph (64 km/h).[18] This speed was extremely beneficial in both attack and defence, outmanoeuvring opponents. At least one case is known of vehicle commanders using the vehicles fast speed to jump large gaps - In Holland, a troop of three Cromwells was able to leap a 20 ft wide canal when surprised by enemy forces.."

What puzzles me, though, is that during the war they were unable to come up with a turret for it that could accommodate either the 17-pounder, or the Vickers 75mm (equivalent of the German 75mm on the Panther).
Yet after the War, they mounted a 20-pounder (3.3in) on it and sold the tank to the Jordanians, the Austrians, and many others as the FV 4101. I guess it's just difficult to research, develop and introduce not merely a new tank, but all manner of fighting vehicles (Ships, Aircraft, tanks, etc..) in the middle of a major war; not simply in Europe but globally. :think:
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Re: Cromwell outclimbs Sherman M4..

Post by RobW »

How does the Churchill compare? Does the extra length mean it has more track contact compared to the Sherman?
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Re: Cromwell outclimbs Sherman M4..

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RobW wrote:How does the Churchill compare? Does the extra length mean it has more track contact compared to the Sherman?
The Churchill wasn't included in this trial; but was legendary for having tons of low torque, and an astonishing ability to climb hills (demonstrated to great effect in Korea) that would have defeated most other tanks. It was designed by a team of WW1 design dinosaurs, apparently, who imagined it would need to travel (slowly) over wide trenches and ditches like its Great War ancestors; and this explains its sheer bulk and 'retro' look. Ironically, this had a good unintended effect:its sheer length, and track footprint, helped to compensate for the limitations of suspension movement created by it's wee bogie wheels. Also, the position of the front rollers, the high ground clearance, and the wide tracks gave it the ability to surmount obstacles that would have left other tanks such as the Sherman, needing to call out the AA, or RAC... :D or an ARCV. Again, the Churchill had some of the best armour protection for its crew of any WW2 tank, but was let down, like the Cromwell, by not being able to accept a bigger turret ring, and with it the bigger gun it would have offered. :|
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Re: Cromwell outclimbs Sherman M4..

Post by Roboticus_Prime »

Awesome info! I can't gent enough of talking tank history!

I do love me some British armor. It has a certain style that I find appealing. I really wish they were represented more in this hobby, and in documentaries.

Most of the issue's with the 75mm came from the poor AP ammo early in the war. Even with that, things like Tigers were rare for a Sherman crew. Most of the time the tanks were attacking fortified locations and gun emplacements, which the 75's HE round was very useful against. And when they did encounter tanks, it was usually stug's, PZ III's ,and PZ IV's that the 75 could reliably handle at normal combat ranges. Heck the 76 was available at D-Day, but the field commanders wanted the 75's because of the HE round.

I think the only real issue with the 17-pounder was that the breach of the thing was HUGE. It really limited what it could be put on.

On another note, have you seen The Chieftains video about myths of American armor? It delves into the overblown failings of mostly the Sherman during WW2.
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Re: Cromwell outclimbs Sherman M4..

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43rdRecceReg wrote:Again, the Churchill had some of the best armour protection for its crew of any WW2 tank, but was let down, like the Cromwell, by not being able to accept a bigger turret ring, and with it the bigger gun it would have offered. :|
Had the Black Prince been started earlier in the war (before the Comet and Firefly made it obsolete), it would have been a force to been reckoned with. A British Tiger!
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Re: Cromwell outclimbs Sherman M4..

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

Raminator wrote:
43rdRecceReg wrote:Again, the Churchill had some of the best armour protection for its crew of any WW2 tank, but was let down, like the Cromwell, by not being able to accept a bigger turret ring, and with it the bigger gun it would have offered. :|
Had the Black Prince been started earlier in the war (before the Comet and Firefly made it obsolete), it would have been a force to been reckoned with. A British Tiger!
Agreed :thumbup: If they'd put the Cromwell's meteor engine in there (at 600BHP a much better better power to weight ratio, than the paltry 350 BHP The 'Prince had..), then it would have been a match for anything. Indeed, it was the lack of speed and power that led to its cancellation.. :thumbdown: Ironically, they managed to fit a Churchill turret on
a Cromwell, but took that no further too. If they could a 17-Pounder Turret on a Churchill, as they did with the Black Prince, you'd think they could have contrived one for the Cromwell as well. :problem: Benefit of (long) hindsight, eh? Here's the Cromwell rebranded as the Charioteer FV 4101, sporting that massive 20-Pounder. Crazy. Yet, the 17-pounder was a no-go. :eh: This Cromwell variant, with the massive appendage, saw active service well into the 1960s and beyond; mostly in the Middle East. The long narrow elongated turret was the answer, and echoed German 'narrow' turret design from the War's end. It was conceived and built by Robinson and Kershaw of Cheshire. Or maybe by Gandalf and his magic staff!
Cromwell- Charioteer- FV4101
Cromwell- Charioteer- FV4101
Cromwell Charioteer FV4101.jpg (82.62 KiB) Viewed 1516 times
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