Movie: Talvlsota-The Winter War

[43rdRecceReg]

I'm currently visiting a friend who lives well to the south of Hadrian's Wall. That leaves me bereft of anything vaguely tank-like, as well as my comforting stash of aged Highland malts To counter the withdrawal symptoms (n.b., tank-addiction only..slurp abstinence is nae bother!), I've armed myself with a few WW2 movies from Amazon that featuring said missing tank-like creatures.
I really enjoyed 'The Winter War' ('Talvisota in the original Finnish), made in 1989. Although it has none of the modern CGI effects of Ryan's Privates, or 'Fury", nonetheless, the battle scenes are pretty ferocious and quite credible...even 'edge of the seat' (more so, if you're plagued with 'piles' Luckily, I'm not!). The editing's a bit jerky and disjointed, the video quality a tad grainy and VHS-like; but the (A1 quality) explosions, and the clanking appearances of a several working T-26E's, make the whole battle scene come alive in an unnerving fashion. Given that it's only a few quid on Amazon, it's well worth a viewing. In the actual Winter War, the Finns, armed with little more than a handful of archaic Renault FT-17s and Vickers-Armstrong 6-tonners made the Russians pay a heavy price for invading them. For every Finn lost, 5-6 Russians died. For every tank destroyed (Finns only had 32 to begin with), the Russians lost one hundred; though most of those were also archaic T26-Es (based on the Vickers 6-tonner).
Here's a foretaste:

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For those who might have missed the T26E build thread of Mexas do catch up on:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=18653
Here's a shot of Finns looking almost indistinguishable from Germans, next to a knocked out T-34 (from the Continuation War, 1941-44)

You can't keep a good uniform down..

After the Winter War (1939-40), the Finns also gave the Russians a good drubbing in the 'Continuation War'. Again, for every Finnish loss, the Russians paid five-fold.

T-26s grinding and clanking into action..or inaction

T-26 hulk today..

Rotting T-26 from Winter War

Destroyed T-26.jpg (46.53 KiB) Viewed 1405 times

[Estnische]

I heard recently that the Fins achievements in the Winter War was one of the reasons that the Germans figured they had enough resources to have simultaneous Eastern and Western fronts.

It also puts light on the other Baltic countries - although allied to the Germans, they were not believers in the Fascist ideals, they were merely fighting against Soviet occupation. Only the Fins had a population large enough to cause the Russians to sue for peace.

[Tiggr]

Very interesting. I've learnt something else today.
Worth watching methinks.

The Russians didn't hesitate to expend 100s of tanks and thousands of troops in WW II on the Eastern front.

[43rdRecceReg]

I heard recently that the Fins achievements in the Winter War was one of the reasons that the Germans figured they had enough resources to have simultaneous Eastern and Western fronts.

It also puts light on the other Baltic countries - although allied to the Germans, they were not believers in the Fascist ideals, they were merely fighting against Soviet occupation. Only the Fins had a population large enough to cause the Russians to sue for peace.

Yep, it wasn't only the Finns caught in the murderous metal sandwich of Russians vs Germans. The Estonians were either pressganged into the soviet army after their families were sent for 're-education" (forced labour) in Siberia, or driven to join the Germans. Either way, they were in the invidious position of having to kill the members of the opposing invading foreign military blocs, and ultimately..fellow Balts ( a major theme of the movie below). All for the sake of Heimat/Homeland, and all to little avail, as history has shown. But hey..they are in the EU now lucky/unlucky them..delete as appropriate!!
The film '1944': forced to fight' is a worthy Estonian attempt to capture the appalling,bloody, brutal dilemma the small Baltic nation found itself in during WW2. Again, as with Talvisota there is a good deal of credible action involving (fully functional) tanks of the era. In this instance, there are some great looking T34/85s and, as with Talvisota, the battlefields, trenches, dugouts and defences all have the stamp of authenticity without undue reliance on CGI. I would have been biting my nails, if they hadn't been so flaky . ..such was effect of the immersive action sequences. Much of the action centres around Estonian members of the Waffen-SS., though that is not presented as a choice based on notions of racial superiority. It was more to do with survival.
Incidentally, Amazon or maybe the film distributors- I know not which- have a habit of marketing DVDs under different titles with different covers; especially if they're in foreign languages. Call me cynical (you wouldn't be the first), but that seems a cheap marketing wheeze, and could result in punters duplicating films in their collections. Anyway, this film appears under two or there different Titles, so be warned. I'd recommend anyone with an interest in WW2 to deviate from the well trodden, even prosaic battlefields (Kursk, El Alamein, Normandy, Iwo Jima etc.,,), and search for movies on overlooked..but often key conflicts..such as those around Tannenberg, the Karelia peninsula and East Prussia. After all, WW2 happened all over the world not just Normandy. That said...I can't think of any battles that occurred in the continental US..
Here's a preview:

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I see that the whole film can be watched on Youtube. But for that, you'd have to be fluent in Spanish..

[Estnische]

Or Estonian

My avatar is the unit patch of the Estonian division. They were an SS unit, as Hitler wanted all foreign troops under their strict control.

My grandfather was a doctor conscripted into a Grenadier equivalent of a 'MASH' unit, but not in the Estonian division for whatever reason.

In September '44, on my father's six birthday, my grandmother was allowed with thousands of others, to evacuate from Estonia with her two boys on one of the German ships provided for those who might not be kindly treated by the Soviets.

Prior to Barbarossa, her brother was a local postmaster when the mail train was blown up by Estonian 'Resistance'. The Commissars said he must have provided them with information, so they took him out in the forest and shot him in the back of the head. No one was game enough to go and get his body I case they were similarly accused, so she got a horse and cart and did it herself.

She told the story of once being in Germany, she was in a queue for food, and overheared a German woman being rather rude about foreigners. My grandmother was fluent in several languages and asked the woman where her husband was. "On the Eastern Front!" came the retort. "So is mine!" She replied.

[43rdRecceReg]

Or Estonian

My avatar is the unit patch of the Estonian division. They were an SS unit, as Hitler wanted all foreign troops under their strict control.

My grandfather was a doctor conscripted into a Grenadier equivalent of a 'MASH' unit, but not in the Estonian division for whatever reason.

In September '44, on my father's six birthday, my grandmother was allowed with thousands of others, to evacuate from Estonia with her two boys on one of the German ships provided for those who might not be kindly treated by the Soviets.

Prior to Barbarossa, her brother was a local postmaster when the mail train was blown up by Estonian 'Resistance'. The Commissars said he must have provided them with information, so they took him out in the forest and shot him in the back of the head. No one was game enough to go and get his body I case they were similarly accused, so she got a horse and cart and did it herself.

She told the story of once being in Germany, she was in a queue for food, and overheared a German woman being rather rude about foreigners. My grandmother was fluent in several languages and asked the woman where her husband was. "On the Eastern Front!" came the retort. "So is mine!" She replied.

I did wonder about the avatar... and the 'Est' part seemed to hint at some baltic connection or interest. Do tell more. I think, especially for personal reasons, you'll agree that this theatre of operations is largely overlooked on popular WW2 forums. Well, then here's the opportunity to redress that.
On a recent visit to the Bovington tank museum, I noticed that a Bren (Universal) Carrier there sported the Wyvern- or flying dragon- symbol of the Wessex division, and also of it's 43rd Reconnaissance unit. That was, of course, my late father's unit in WW2. Oddly, even though my family has no connection whatever with Wessex, nor much of a connection with England, for that matter...as the war progressed, and casualties increased, or new units were formed, transfers were quite common. Thus, my dad actually started out in an infantry unit before going armoured.
Bovington is also the home of the Royal Armoured Corps (Recce regiments belonged ultimately to the RAC), as well as the Royal Tank Regiment. So, on his behalf, I felt quite at home there...
By the same token, have you visited Estonia? I once got as far as Kiel on the Baltic..but no further; but got a good whiff of that chill baltic air. I'm also thinking of the thousands of souls who perished on the Wilhelm Gustloff in 1945. More than 5,000 refugees from Prussia and the baltic states were sent to the bottom by a Russian sub.. Lucky for you, your kin weren't on board that one....

[Estnische]

You are so right Roy. My father says, that at the age of six, he remembers little, apart from a German soldier stopping him from going up on deck because of the risk of strafing.

There were two significant engagements in Estonia: Narva and Sinim?ed. Both of these have interesting tank battles, although on a small scale.

Narva first sparked my interest through the Otto Carius book ‘Tigers in the Mud’ and his accounts of the Tigers of the 502nd fighting on the Estonian-Russian border in the winter of ’43-’44.

When the position at Narva was no longer sustainable, they fell back west to the Blue Hills (Sinim?ed). Positions were dug in and a small but bloody battle ensued. Lack of armour in quantity made the battle more like WWI, but Panther Ds of Hyacinth Graf Strachwitz, and the Stugs of Paul-Albert Kausch, made important interventions and positions on each of the hills changed hands several times.
Quite how they had Panthers is somewhat of a miracle. My understanding (very sketchy) is that the Ds had been from the original batch that went to Operation Zitadelle and were written off. The remains were sent to Army Group North to be dug in as stationary bunkers in the ‘Panther’ Line. Somehow parts were obtained and they were resurrected into operational tanks. I haven’t seen many photos of these tanks, I’m guessing that was low on the priorities at that stage.



The best way to understand the conflict is to watch this 1 hour doco (in six parts) with English subtitles.

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I’d imagine the footage is likely to have been behind the Iron Curtain until 1989 and hasn’t been seen much before - there are some glimpses of German and Russian armour to keep you entertained.

Ultimately of course, they lost, but they held on from January to August. In September the Soviets launched the Riga offensive and Tallinn, the Estonian capital fell on 22 September, the day my family managed to get out on an evacuation ship. We are eternally grateful for their sacrifice.

[Estnische]

Besides the Panthers and StuGs, there were trophy tanks, such as this T34 I'm sure you are all familiar with. It is believed it had been captured during the fighting at Sinim?ed and the Germans drove it into the lake when they retreated in early September 1944.



And also Panzer IVs, as witnessed by this photo taken in 1949.

[HengRong]

Sorry, post fail.

[43rdRecceReg]

Besides the Panthers and StuGs, there were trophy tanks, such as this T34 I'm sure you are all familiar with. It is believed it had been captured during the fighting at Sinim?ed and the Germans drove it into the lake when they retreated in early September 1944.



And also Panzer IVs, as witnessed by this photo taken in 1949.

I'm amazed that that so little is known about this theatre of operations. For this reason, it's ever more crucial that those who lived through it should commit their memories to tape, disc, relative
video or ..well, even paper.
Here's a video of a T34 being dragged from a parallel universe back into this one, still.. (it's claimed)..by Russophiles no doubt..in working order
Also, I see that the 1944 movie had just been independently discovered on another thread. Synchronicity, eh?

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