Tiger1 roadwheels arrangement

[jarndice]

Yes TIGGR,
If you read what has already been written on this thread you will see that the point has already been covered,
The early Tiger 1 when carried on railway flat cars had their outer wheels removed and transport tracks Which were narrower, fitted instead,
This was done to allow Tank transporting trains to run with a much reduced width, Which allowed the normal operation of the railways, And in the Russian Campaign because of the mud building up within the front dual wheel configuration the front outer wheel was frequently removed.
Shaun.

[silversurfer1947]

Sorry if I seemed to duplicate - I was typing my post while you were posting yours. I just type slower!

LOL, you must type like me ------ with just four fingers ( that is 2 thumbs and 2 index fingers)

You use BOTH thumbs?

[Tiggr]

Yes TIGGR,
If you read what has already been written on this thread you will see that the point has already been covered,
The early Tiger 1 when carried on railway flat cars had their outer wheels removed and transport tracks Which were narrower, fitted instead,
This was done to allow Tank transporting trains to run with a much reduced width, Which allowed the normal operation of the railways, And in the Russian Campaign because of the mud building up within the front dual wheel configuration the front outer wheel was frequently removed.
Shaun.

Yes, I'm well aware of the transport track arrangements (Must have been a right PITA for the crews), BUT if you look closely at the pictures of the early production models out on the battlefields, you will see the the way the outer wheels were arranged were not always the same as fitted at the factory after transport/repairs were carried out. You also already know about missing wheels after battle damage/mud clogging etc.

[jarndice]

Eastern I agree with you in every aspect,
If you have served then you will be very aware that if there wasn't a laid down way of doing something then the military will start a way of doing it
When the first workshop manual for the Tiger 1 (Early) was being written I am sure some engineer was asked which way the wheels should be fitted and he puffed on his meerschaum pipe and knowing full well that it didn't make the slightest difference said with firm conviction ,"Front wheels outside" and so it came to pass that all road wheels on Tiger 1 (Early) had that configuration BUT LO, along came the Tiger 1(Late) and a new workshop manual had to be written,
Again the same engineer was asked how the new steel wheels should be "Laced" Puffing on his cigar (he had a raise in wages)and knowing that there really was no difference still but to gee up the fitters in the field workshops he reversed the wheel layout,
A little while later the Tiger 2 workshop manual was being written and another engineer who did not share the previous ones impish humour was asked how the wheels should be fitted, as he was only familiar with the Tiger 1 (Early)he first began by lighting a roll up cigarette (The war was not going well for Germany by then) and said "Leading wheel outside like the Tiger 1 (Early)"
And that girls and boys is the story of how the Tiger Tank gained its confusing wheel layout.
Honest.
Shaun.

[Gazbo]

WOW - sorry guys - I didn't mean to get you all fired up !
Anyway, thanks for the input. As an aside, and with me being a mechanical Engineer, If left to my own devices, with a full scale "Early Tiger 1" (Which is what mine is supposed to represent) I would venture the following suggestion.

Given that a./ the vehicle, in the majority of cases, would be travelling in a forwardly fashion,
and b./ that said vehicle would be expected to mount, and clear obstacles, with a minimum of difficulty, in order to adequately support the tracks,at the point where any obstacle would be encountered, ie - where the front roadwheels were sited, and given that the point of greatest leverage against the track in this case, would be the outermost portion of said track link, it would follow, that the outermost set of roadwheels be fitted, in the forward bay.
I have the distinct feeling that this may not have been considered by messrs Henschel, Krupp, Porsche et-al. In laymans terms - think about it. Where on a moving tank track will the point of greatest stress generally be? (Actually - there would be three main areas. #1 = point at where the track first engages the drive teeth. #2 = over the idler wheel.
#3 = point of maximum impact, ie - where the track first meets with its obstacles.(under front road wheels)
As there is 50- odd tons of tank connected to one side of the track, but with a supporting track at the opposite side of the hull, stopping said 50-odd tons from levering down too much, the outer side is therefore left to support itself, whence mounting said obstacles. (So you can see that the areas requiring the greatest amount of support, are indeed, the outermost sections of the links, at the point where they revolve around the front driving wheel.
To have the front wheels arranged "inboard" therefore, seems to me to be a ridiculous idea (Setting aside the rail transportation argument, and the Kursk mud scenario - I'm talking about normal conditions here).
Based on all that techno - Garbage - I'm putting my outers on the front
PS. wasn't intending to build a 6" gauge steam railway to chug it around the garden on anyway ! haha. Mind you........ B|Thanks for the great input though guys. You did help.

[jarndice]

Gaz forget it,
This is what we do,
You ask a question, we knock it back and forth and either we get bored and walk away or the person with the biggest reference book wins.
If you have the answer you want then all is well.
Shaun.

[HERMAN BIX]

This has been very interesting. I for one have not picked up on the differences, but have at times wondered about pics of some vehicles with tracks fitted backwards etc(not on Tigers as such) but in general.
I know the ground pressure rating of the Tiger 1 was less than that of the Sherman, so stress loading on the running gear may not be as bad as it looks.

Mr Gaz's analysis of the probable metallurgical effects of wheels V tracks etc is very good reading, I learned a bit on that subject reserching steel wheels for my Panther, where apparently the unit which had the 22 machines fitted with all-steel wheels during the Battle of the Bulge had a unit of engineers along with it to find out why the tracks failed all the time, and this leading to the abandonment of the all-steel Panthers with standard tracks.

Im sticking the neck out a bit here by saying that I have an understanding that interleaved rather than overlapping wheels are the difference between the tiger models, but this Im sure will be straightened out pretty quick

Great discussion lads

[Gazbo]

Thanks guys. I don't have any reference books. it was just that mine was delivered with the inners to the front, and it just doesn't look right in my eyes. (The last reply was meant to be a bit tongue - in - cheek. sorry if I sounded like I was on one ! haha.)
No probs then.
Outers to the front it will be !
Thanks again all.

[Tiggr]

And the internet of course

[HERMAN BIX]

Where I was going with the reversed track thing was, imagine all the grunting, piss-farting, and moment of pride when you finally got the first track on, then to stand back and see it was on backwards ...................