New Member

[Andy Antipas]

Hi I'm new to the RC world and don't have a tank yet. I'm hoping I can learn about the different brands and options before I take pull the trigger. I'm an old armor modeller from the 1970's, but I have a young son and was thinking it would be a fun hobby we could do together. New RC models can do things I only dreamed of in my youth. Any suggestions or recommendations to brands and products would be appreciated. Thanks, Andy

[BIGMIG]

Hello Andy,
  Just wanted to say Hi and welcome to the forum.Lots of help and info to be had here.

                        BIGMIG 

[Ex_Pat_Tanker]

Hi Andy,
Welcome to our world . There are scales out there other than 1:16, but I have no experience of them so I will leave it to the others to comment on their merits.
1:16 tanks come in 2 forms - Kit and ready to run (RTR). the RTR brands are WSN (a RTR off-shoot of Trumpeter), Heng Long (and the related Matorro brand), and Hobby Engine.

By far the most commonly available is Heng Long (HL). The have been around for a few years now and their quality is much improved from when they started out. Not including the variations in paint schemes, different levels of electronics - so called 'Smoke and Sound' (S&S) and non S&S - and the choice of Infrared or airsoft armament, HL offer 11 different models.
There is also a wide range of available upgrade and detailing parts, modification kits, and most importantly - easy access to spare parts when something breaks! The newer models come with Infrared battle capability as an option, with upgrade kits being offered for the older models. This is not compatable with the standard used by the majority of RC clubs around the world, but its plenty good enough for you and your son to chase each other around the back yard

Matorro are a 'somehow related' company, formed by 2 of HL's distributors (Mato in Canada, Torro in Germany). They currently offer 3 models, but they are more expensive and a little harder to come by in the UK. As a general rule, because they are more of a niche brand their quality/robustness isn't quite upto HL standards yet - most of us here tend to either replace the gearboxes and/or the electronics.
They do have a Sherman in the works right now, on which they have been working with one of the more respected modellers in the RC community on the design, we have high hopes that they will take a giant leap forward with this release.

WSN market modified versions of the Trumpeter T34 and Tiger static kits. The electronics are poor and most of us replace them immediately with the cheap and readily available HL stuff. The tanks themseleves are also not quite as robust mechanically, and the spare parts are harder to come by. That said, they do come with a much better paint job that the HL tanks. The newer versions also offer "infrared battle" capability, but again this is not compatable with any other brand (and the fact that you can hit the other guy whilst virtually facing in the opposite direction makes us wonder why they bothered...!)
The Trumpeter static kits are generally more hassle that they are worth to make into an RC model. They are working on an RC version of their M16 half track kit however, hopefully for release later in the year.

Hobby Engine have 2 models at the moment, the M1 Abrams and Leopard 2. As far as I recall from reports, once you have replaced the electronics they are ok - check with Mackem if you are interested, he's our resident Hobby Engine guru.

Your choice of Kits are as follows:
Tamiya I'm sure you are familiar with. Their latest 'full option' kits are the best models out there currently, and by far the most expensive - going by US prices they are 6 to 8x the cost of the equivalent HL tank, if you factor in the price of the additional radio gear you need to buy on top of the kit. Beware of older Tamiya tanks available second hand - only the latest 'full option' models have turret rotation, sounds etc. The older models generally need a lot more work and extra parts (usually HL again) to bring them up to the same functionality as a RTR HL tank. They currently offer 6 WW2 and 1 modern tank, with another WW2 design in the works.

Andrew Design are a niche market manufacturer, they make some very nice resin kits of some of the less well known German WW2 armoured cars and support vehicles. They are also suitably expensive for what they are, and might not be the best thing for your son to be playing with right now... See www.xion.de for their range.

Hooben are a new company who are looking to get into the market. They are looking to be the Chinese equivalent of Tamiya, offering a quality kit with 'full option' type functionality. At the moment they are ironing out the electronics of their T55, with other tanks slated for release later in the year. the cost should be roughly half way between a low end Tamiya and a HL.

So, at the end of yet another rambling essay from the Ex_Pat:
Generally I would recommend the Heng Long smoke and sound range as a good source of starter tanks. Assuming that you don't get landed with somebody's old stock (beware of the cheaper examples on Ebay!) most of the original bugs have been ironed out of the Tiger and its not a bad start point to build on over the coming years. Avoid the 'Panther' ,the rest of their line up is ok so long as you bear in mind that they are a toy and if the thing starts struggling to move, its probably best that you stop before you blow a transistor or something...! (Even the Tamiya's aren't bullet proof in that regard - despite what some might tell you elsewhere...)
The WSN's are certainly attractive models, and different to what HL offer (Mid production model Tiger vs Early from HL). If you feel up to the challenge of gutting them and replacing the electronics then go for it, otherwise they're probably best avoided due to the lack of available spare control boards. The rest I would hesitate to recommend for younger children due to a lack of robustness and/or high cost, but at least I hope you have an idea of what is out there.

If you wish to get involved with our club, your options for suitable electronics and IR systems can be found here:
http://www.rctankwarfare.com/Forums/ind ... 919.0.html

Recommended vendors can be found in this board:
http://www.rctankwarfare.com/Forums/ind ... ,17.0.html

I should warn you that these things are addicitive and you will own more than one...

Hope this nonsense helps!
Mart

[Andy Antipas]

Hi Mart,

Wow, thank you for that discussion! It is very helpful. I think you covered most of my questions. To back up a little bit, I should explain my interest in military modelling goes back to my childhood. My father taught me how to build models. Most of what he built was military aircraft, which came from his days as a ball-turret gunner on a B-17G (447 bomb group) stationed near Rattlesden, England. I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree? As mentioned previously, I have been away from modelling for many years, but have pursued other interests that are probably familiar to UK citizens on this board. Historic road racing formula fords is a passion. Visit my website www.titancars.com if curious. Ok, back to RC tanks...... (like I need another hobby)

While doing google searches and looking through ebay, I have noticed the Heng Long tanks. However, the one I had my eye on was the Trumpeter mid-production Tiger 1. However, based on what you are telling me I should stay with the HL versions. It doesn't make much sense to buy something from new and yank out the electronics. I would be keen to buy a Tamiya (I built many 1/35 scale kits years ago), but I'm thinking I could get a taste for RC hobby with a HL tank? If I like it, I can always go for a Tamiya version in the future. Thanks for the heads-up on the Panther. I noticed that the running gear is Tiger...... I also noticed someone on the board modified the suspension on their HL Tiger to be correct?  If I can resurrect some of my old modelling skills, I could update the HL Tiger to a mid-production version? I saw somewhere that somebody sells a kit to upgrade the Tamiya Tiger? As you say, the HL tanks don't come with much of a finish. Do all the external stores come attached to the tank? If so, can they be removed for painting? Do all the bogie wheels come off for maintenance or painting? I have also seen references to metal tracks, metal cannon barrels, and other upgraded external parts. I would imagine any Tamiya external upgrades will fit since the scale is the same?

Do I want to avoid the airsoft firing guns? I'm not famiiar with airsoft products, but it sounds like an alternative to paint ball guns that some people are into? I would prefer to have the main gun recoil, and have a muzzle flash vs. loading BB's. It sounds like the options are almost limitless? Oh, on one of the websites I saw a video of two HL tanks battling. Apparently, they do some little dance when hit. That would be something to disable in the electronics! I will keep reading and learning before I buy anything. Again, thank you for your time and consideration. Best, Andy

[Ex_Pat_Tanker]

Hi Andy, I'll try to keep this one brief (for a change ::) )

Only the Stug III, Jadgpanther and (soon to be released) KV-1 come with gun recoil out of the box. There are various upgrade kits for the rest of HL's range, with varying degree's of difficulty involved. Most of my tanks still have the airsoft for now, but I think thats something that will go away eventually - now that I have started fitting IR systems to my fleet, I will be buying their recoil versions in future.

All the WSN tanks have recoil, this can be hooked up to the HL airsoft output channel quite easily. Replacing the HL electronics is not all that expensive or difficult as long as you are comfortable with using a soldering iron to make a few basic connections. It does make a huge improvement to the model's driveability if you go this route. If you take a look at what Oz did with his WSN Mid Tiger, I'm sure you get an idea of 'the art of the possible'.

The HL Tiger is something to be wary of. So long as you get it from a vendor recommended here you should get the later model with metal supports for the chassis arms and screws holding the road wheels to the suspension arms. There are some older ones out there (and it certainly looks like Matorro used the old tooling for their Tiger and SturmTiger) that use pins to hold the road wheels on - which tend to crack the suspension arms when pressed in - and lack the metal chassis supports, which means that the arms are screwed into plastic rather than metal - leading to cracked mounting bosses. You can get parts to rectify this, but why bother if you don't have too?

With the exception of the tow cables and the chassis rear details like airfilters and exhaust shields, the Tigers external fittings are molded on. The same goes for the majority of the Panzer IIIL's and some of the Panzer IV's parts. The rest of them come with detatchable accessories (tho sometimes only via brute force!). For my 3 HL Tigers I just hand painted the details after doing the main paint job, but for my Matorro build I'm going for the high end, and decided to grind them off and get aftermarket ones - its really down to how steady your hands are and how much do you want to spend...

As you have seen here, some of us have gone down the route of replacing the chassis with an aftermarket version, but I wouldn't say that was necessary unless you (a) added so much to the model that its too heavy for the original suspension, or (b) you bought a Matorro Tiger because it was on special offer with metal tracks and the turret details were more correct than the HL, and you only realised later that the chassis was the original (and much maligned!) version, and the gearboxes were not the normal HL ones...
(And an Austrian mate of your's owed you some cash, so you persuaded him to order it from the german distributor and ship it out to you - guilty as charged M'Lud!  )

Not all tamiya parts will fit a HL - generally major stuff like tracks, road wheels, replacement barrels, gearboxes and mechanisms are specific to the manufacturer.

The 'HL wiggle' (along with the 'whole tank recoil' of older non gun recoil equiped versions - aka the 'HL shuffle'!) can be cured by fitting the DBC system found in my Electronics thread. It might be an expensive cure, but if you want a 'club compatable' IR system with added bonuses like spin-on-the-spot blocking, simulated momentum, selectable combat weight class and extra sounds then its well worth doing.

To make a mid production Tiger from the HL is reasonably easy, the hardest part may be relocating the headlight to the hull front (otherwise known as the bit I haven't done yet!).
David's general thread on everything wrong with the HL Tiger is here: http://www.rctankwarfare.com/Forums/ind ... 635.0.html - Items 1, 2, and 3 are easily corrected with the aid of a dremel, the rest I'm not touching with a 10ft pole... I haven't tried the gun barrel stretch, but parts are available and others have done it. The advantage of the WSN is that it doesn't need this doing. The (incorrectly orientated) pistol port on the left side of the turret needs to get ripped off and filled in. Turret vents and the cast commanders coupola are available online and easily fitted (again the WSN has those already).
A good source of Tiger reference pictures can be found here: http://www.tiif.de/index.php?sid=0c1a6d ... 594e57f74f

So much for the brief answers eh? ::)
I hope this covered everything, and at least guides you to your next set of questions - which is what we are here to answer
Cheer's
Mart

P.S. Just checked your website - sorry I'd assumed you were in the UK for some reason! - Check out www.rccommand.com, Bill will sort you out with everything you need - and If he doesn't stock it, he can probably get it for you!

[Andy Antipas]

Morning Mart, Thank you for being so helpful. After reading your posts, I spent way too much time surfing last night! I did go to rccommand.com, which is the best American RC tank website I have found. Bill lists a supe series S&S tiger 1 for $164 with metal gearbox, upgraded battery, metal tracks, drive/idler wheels. Some follow up question(s).

Are the metal tracks and drive/idler wheels something I should start out with? Sounds like something that will get replaced with regular use?

I also noticed that Bill (and other vendors) offer metal replacement suspension arms and bronze bushings? Again, nice to luxury or needed? I would imagine one does not want to be taking the tank apart all the time. The small screws in plastic won't like the constant assembly/disassembly thing?

I also found a company that offers a Whittmann upgrade kit for the tamiya tiger here: http://www.backyardarmor.com/AIB_LATE_T ... rts%20List

Do you have any knowledge or experience with that? There are a lot of Whitmann tigers out there. I will look to do something different. I also went to the German tiger 1 reference site. I don't remember much of my high school German and I don't see any English language pages? However, I will struggle around it. I have some books I bought as a teenager on WW2 armor (including assorted German tanks). I will blow the dust off and start to flip through those.

In the old days, I used to make my own zimmerit coating w/ modelling filler (green stuff). I noticed that vendors sell a zimmerit kit. I'm wondering what the experts are doing? Plus, Bill sells an upgraded turret with tamiya barrel and muzzle brake and recoil conversion. Amazing the support out there. However, the $100 tank can quickly turn into a $400 tank!

Ok, time to make the coffee! Thanks again!

[Ex_Pat_Tanker]

Morning Andy,
Glad to be of help! Answers below:

Morning Mart, Thank you for being so helpful. After reading your posts, I spent way too much time surfing last night! I did go to rccommand.com, which is the best American RC tank website I have found. Bill lists a supe series S&S tiger 1 for $164 with metal gearbox, upgraded battery, metal tracks, drive/idler wheels. Some follow up question(s).

Are the metal tracks and drive/idler wheels something I should start out with? Sounds like something that will get replaced with regular use?

The only plastic tracks I have seen break are the Tigers, so yes I could recommend them. They also add a lot of weight which helps the tank move around. I've not used my Tigers that extensively yet, but I've certainly never heard of anyone wearing out a set of metal tracks.

I also noticed that Bill (and other vendors) offer metal replacement suspension arms and bronze bushings? Again, nice to luxury or needed? I would imagine one does not want to be taking the tank apart all the time. The small screws in plastic won't like the constant assembly/disassembly thing?

I think I'm safe in saying that if you have the newer version of the tiger you won't need the replacement arms. The screws holding the wheels on are much smaller in diameter than the old style pins, and they make the arm far less prone to cracking. If you were to upgrade the wheels to the Asiatam late model Tiger set, then you would need the arms as they require the shorter wheel pins - other than that you should be good.

I also found a company that offers a Whittmann upgrade kit for the tamiya tiger here: http://www.backyardarmor.com/AIB_LATE_T ... rts%20List

Beware of Backyard Armour! I have bought decal sheets from there, but thats about all I could suggest them for. Pretty much everyone who has delt with him in the last few years has complained of orders taking forever and no communication from the seller. Most of his kits are out of stock and there's no telling when he'll have more...

Do you have any knowledge or experience with that? There are a lot of Whitmann tigers out there. I will look to do something different. I also went to the German tiger 1 reference site. I don't remember much of my high school German and I don't see any English language pages? However, I will struggle around it. I have some books I bought as a teenager on WW2 armor (including assorted German tanks). I will blow the dust off and start to flip through those.

I decided not to do the turret roof upgrade, but it should be possible to cut your own from plastic sheet :-\ . If you have the google toolbar installed, there is a right click option page info > Translate page into english 

In the old days, I used to make my own zimmerit coating w/ modelling filler (green stuff). I noticed that vendors sell a zimmerit kit. I'm wondering what the experts are doing?

Most of use use a 2 part epoxy putty called Miliput. Some of the guys have started using styrene sheet contoured with a soldering iron. There is a how-to in the tips and tricks section

Plus, Bill sells an upgraded turret with tamiya barrel and muzzle brake and recoil conversion. Amazing the support out there. However, the $100 tank can quickly turn into a $400 tank!

I looked at those, but you are right - these things can get eye wateringly expensive if you buy all the toys in one go!

Ok, time to make the coffee! Thanks again!

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