PANTHER G ZU-FUSS

[HERMAN BIX]

Thanks Mr Bilpe, i'm bloody trying !!
Getting these wheels done has just given me the feeling that keeps us all going and doing this 'thing' we do.
As it is said......................"There are many others like it, but this one is mine"

Long ways to go yet though, and fitting the schurzen and then the rockets will be the true test of getting it right.
No picture to go off for that part

Funny thing is though, if a man had the right equipment and supply of wheels & hardware, a 'ready fit' Steel Wheel Panther kit would not be that hard to make available.
Now I have to get the Vampir gear for it, from overseas, and that I know will be a while.

[HERMAN BIX]

10/4 Mr Magman, the hub caps are better using the late Tiger 1 wheels than the KT ones, but the flat disc hubs can be pretty easily installed. Mud will cover them mostly anyway as in the picture of 221.
Shame to waste the nice Taigen hubs but ................

[billpe]

I guess no one makes them due to rarity but then you have something unique and historic. The only reference I've seen personally (there's probably others! I only own a couple of Panther books) is that 24 of these Panthers with all steel road wheels were built at the MAN plant for trial purposes in September 1944, and all given to SS Panzer Regiment 1.

Curious given the rubber situation in Germany why they didn't switch over entirely to these. Then again very little they did made sense when Hitler was involved.

[jeff1101]

Hi Billpe,

I think one of the main reason why all steel roadwheels were discontinued (which explains the fact that so few panther tanks built were so fitted) was their unsatisfactory performance in the field.

The 24 so tanks you mentioned that were fitted with steel wheels was sort of an experiment. In fact only the MAN factory built panthers were equipped with steel wheels and these was a sort of mis-mashed solution since the road wheels came from the king tiger and not really designed for the panther's tracks.

In the King Tiger (and Tiger I's), the track guide horn were solid so could take more stresses when using the steel wheels. In the Panther, the guide horns have holes in them which tended to break easily when steel wheel equipped panthers were driven a considerable distance or on rough ground that tended to twist the tracks and make the guide horns catch the outside of the steel wheel's track guide groove.

regards
Jeffrey

[billpe]

I would guess they wouldn't want to produce two sets of tracks, one for the existing tanks and one for a newer all steel road wheel tank even though it would have been more economical in the long run to migrate them all to one set of newer running gear with less rubber and further align Panther and King Tiger production.

[jeff1101]

Agree with you on that one. Curiously the Panther II has its own track designed for all steel wheel use (see pic below. Note the solid guide horns on this design) but again differs from the designs used for the Panther, King tiger and tiger. Since the Panther ii was never introduced for production this track design was never adopted. Anyway it was not compatible with the Panther since it also had its own design for the sprocket and idler wheels.

[HERMAN BIX]

That is also what I have read as a general consensus on why the steel wheels were not introduced into full production.
As my version will be a November '45 build and carry the rockets, there will be a level of theoretical allowance given.
Hypothetically, and without the benefit of metallurgical info or service testing results, the steel wheels had a resilient edge(the outer edge of the rim/tyre) that would have at times run on the root of the guide horn and that would have been a similar composition to spring steel.
I contend that only after time and all aspects of the appropriate stresses had been introduced into the root of the guide horn that failure would have occurred.
How long was required exactly - who knows, but at this stage of the conflict, and losses being so heavy and immediate, how reliable was the failure rate data, and over what number of the 24 produced were confirmed to have suffered a higher track/running gear failure rate than the rubber tired equivalent ?

I can't accept that a run of 24 machines was commissioned to be 'lab-rat' test vehicles when to prove or disprove the feasibility of the running gear, any and all failures would have to be recorded & details sent back to the factory for analysis in order for any results to be considered accurate.
This is assuming the units recorded track throw rates = vehicle availability for combat across the entire division ..............

I reckon the wheels were a first go at standardisation of production across models of vehicles, at least as far as the high attrition consumables hardware goes (tracks, wheels & barrels)and this factory was the quickest to adapt production & assembly to the task.

Or, they had the hardware to hand & came up with a way of using it.
We will never know for sure either way.

With this in mind I test ran my rolling chassis today
Over kids toys, my foot(just to see how it felt !) and all manor of obstacles.
Ran like a Gypsy with a mortgage document ...............

Also had a few moments before getting dragged out for a haircut & drinks, so hooked into the hull with a borrowed miracle of the modern world.....................

A RENOVATOR
Its a gadget that takes many attachments, but the one I used was the triangle sander
Smashed the Tamiya putty off the hull without raising a sweat.
But Jezzus did it make dust
All I need to do now is coat the plates in super glue, finger them over, and voila- textured steel.
I am going to get me one of these things for sanding, that like death, gravity & taxes is a certain destiny

[billpe]

You have to look at it from the perspective that many at the very top thought they could still win or strike a deal with the western allies and it was business as usual, so field trials were perfectly acceptable to put into place.

The unit diary for SS Panzer Regiment 1 would give it away probably. It could be like 505th Heavy Tank Battalion, they had a swarm of Henschel engineers working in their field maintenance unit and reporting back to the designers and factory any problems they encountered. It's also probably why the 505th managed to use the same set of tanks they were given until the end, despite being one of the first to take delivery and never being resupplied with new hulls. In SS Panzer Regiment 1's case it could be they had MAN engineers working with them.

[ALPHA]

Wondering Herman ....with all your wonderful gadgets.... combined with your Ryobi ...can't figure out why you couldn't machine your wheels by yourself

ALPHA

PS. Machining on the wheels is nice though

[HERMAN BIX]

You have to look at it from the perspective that many at the very top thought they could still win or strike a deal with the western allies and it was business as usual, so field trials were perfectly acceptable to put into place.

The unit diary for SS Panzer Regiment 1 would give it away probably. It could be like 505th Heavy Tank Battalion, they had a swarm of Henschel engineers working in their field maintenance unit and reporting back to the designers and factory any problems they encountered. It's also probably why the 505th managed to use the same set of tanks they were given until the end, despite being one of the first to take delivery and never being resupplied with new hulls. In SS Panzer Regiment 1's case it could be they had MAN engineers working with them.

Certainly could explain it yes. Having the engineers along to carry out more involved remedial works as required over & above what could be considered 'normal' track attrition would be a huge benefit to all, but would not explain the decision to rob 24 King Tigers of the running gear at that time as an experiment on Panthers..............

I suppose we will never know.
Be interesting to see if the battle records of 1st SS do mention this steel-wheeled unit and if it suffered any higher than normal track failures.
I suspect though that the high losses over such a short time, with most if not all un-recoverable, the data might have been scetchy at best