RC Tank Warfare community hobby forum

Good Morning,
While looking over HeinSA's fantastic wooden RC Leopard, a question illuminated the murky cavern of my mind. Exactly why are modern German tanks mostly green. Am I not seeing enough illustrations of different color patterns and types or is it a NATO thing? Yes, I enjoy the striking greys, desert yellows and Ambush patterns of the WWII Panzers and think the modern Leopards and Leopard 2s would look great with some variations. If any of you have pics of this idea in use, hit me with them, please.
regards,
Painless

FYI:

WWII German three color with dots camo ambush pattern was designed to hide late 1944 massed panzers operating in Belgium, Germany etc from view in a Allied black and white aerial photo recon image and it worked pretty well.

The ambush pattern was developed by the German paint industry. Other early German camo patterns were designed in the field or at the factory to blend the Axis AFV into the terrain the vehicle was operating in.

And that is why you see a lot of green on modern German panzers and hopefully they will all stay put within their own forests...

John

Hi Pcomm1,
Thank you for posting the images of the Leopards....I really enjoyed the 'Anti Digital Range finder' effect that was painted on the first tank...... ....It looks like a Pre-First World War Naval camouflage pattern !!.....'confuse a digital range finder'.......hmm, I am not sure about that one at all ..also the American and the German tanks use LASER range Finders, as do the latest Russian design of the T-90 which is described as follows......
The 1A43 information-computer day sight system comprises: the 1G46 Sight/Range-finder and Targeting Device (SDMTD), the 1V528-1 Tank Ballistic Computer (TBC), the 1V216 Switch Block, and the sensor set for shooting conditions (roll of the gun stud axle, wind (DVE-BS capacitance sensor), the tank velocity and the direction angle in relation of the target). The ICDSS allows take account of the corrections during firing: the distance variation to the target, the angle of sight and the side leads, the side component of the wind velocity, the roll angle of the gun stud axle, ambient barometric pressure, the barrel wear, and the projectile type. All the necessary information is input into the TBC from the laser range-finder and the sensors automatically as well as manually by means of potentiometers located at its front panel.
IF anyone actually read that ALL he way through note the part about taking the 'Wear in the barrel into account'.....and its a LASER.....If it can do that then the CAMO pattern is a non-starter...Even the T-72's main gun system is quoted as being 'a Laser rangefinders since 1978, so that camo pattern may well be based on slightly out-dated information. Better get a brush out and go over it in an 'Ambush' pattern then.
Alb.

The digital pattern does very well hiding a target when viewed with night vision while illuminated with IR and I believe Canada only used their Leopard for research

Start your Digital Camo research here as a base for learning more about recent camouflage theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARPAT

Photo below: Of interest I have miniaturized the 1A43 information-computer day sight system and included it in my latest Tamiya Leopard 1 A4 build from static model to a full option TBU panzer.

John

Hi John,
Thank you for the link to the 'Digital Pattern' and how it works well against IR night vision equipment. The link leads to camo pattern called ..................
'MARPAT (short for MARine PATtern) is a digital camouflage pattern in use with the United States Marine Corps' , which is based on the Canadian system called CADPAT. It is available to the imitation army uniforms as the "Digital Woodland Camo" or "Digital Desert Camo".
According to the link the Canadian research was based upon ...The concept of using miniature swatches of color as opposed to large splotches is not new; in World War II, German troops used various patterns similar to the current German Flecktarn, which involved similar small dabs of color on a UNIFORM to provide camouflage.
MARPAT has patterns produced by highly complex fractal equations that result in a non-repeating pattern.
Canadian Disruptive Pattern (CADPAT)[1] is the computer-generated digital camouflage pattern currently used by the Canadian Forces (CF). CADPAT is designed to reduce the likelihood of detection by night vision devices.[1] The basic uniform consists of a wide brim combat hat, helmet cover, T-shirt, tunic, trousers, fragmentation vest, and tactical vest.
Note that these are ALL Uniforms....intended for soldiers or sailors to wear and work particularly well when wet .
. I have quoted the actual wording of the link here because they are all related to UNIFORMs and not to vehicles....There ARE 'FRACTAL camouflage patterns' that can be applied to tanks to conceal them from the Infra-red illumination at night but the patterns are like the picture below.... .
Fractal camouflage is radically different to the paintwork that is applied to the First photo of a tank that you posted. The first tanks colours are not Fractal but more closely resemble the 'Dazzle' camo pattern that was used on naval vessels in World War one and two....With large Blocks of colour..... This is the Wiki link....below the image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage
.
Quotes...... ' Dazzle did not conceal the ship but made it difficult for the enemy to estimate its type, size, speed and heading. The idea was to disrupt the visual rangefinders used for naval artillery. Its purpose was confusion rather than concealment '..........
'colours mostly in use were black, white, blue and green'.............
' In modern times, dazzle camouflage is seldom used. Many car prototypes wear dazzle camouflage during testing to hide the "curves" of the vehicle before the manufacturer is ready to show it to the public.'


THIS is the link to Fractal Camouflage.....as you can see the designs are extremely complicated and can be printed (according to another site) onto a plastic wrapping material before being applied to the tanks and other vehicles. I admire you if you can understand the mathematics of the Fractal...its just words to me...but a fractal cammo pattern is rather helpfully also included in the article and is visible on either side in two long columns as an edging to the written words.
.
http://www.augustrs.com/DigiCamotmpl.html

THIS idea would work but the large blocks are actually only hand sized and are designed to conceal the tank by literally 'projecting' a 'False Heat Signature' rather than by very large blocks of colour.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/239684/h ... nsors.html
.
Sorry to disagree with you, (and in the friendliest way possible) , based upon this I would suggest that the first tank was for 'display purposes' only or was used by the press when they were given the photo as a 'Dis-information' release to be published for any potential enemy to see.
It is not a 'Fractal' camo pattern, or a 'Digital' pattern,and unfortunately I doubt if it would in anyway disguise or conceal the tank from view. It MIGHT confuse an enemy by hiding the exact nature of the vehicle from the human eye but if it was or had been recently moving then the 'True' Infra- Red image would clearly display the hot engine, road wheels and tracks so an armour piercing round would very quickly follow its observation .
LASER Range Finders are not confused by painted colours.
As to the effectiveness of the camo in Day Time...Then in my opinion, against almost any background be it urban or countryside then this tank would stick out like a sore thumb, and even if an opposing tank crew did not immediately recognise it as a tank, then they would almost certainly fire an armour piercing round at it on the safer assumption that it was a tank. The A/P round would also effectively neutralise the target even if it was later found to be a truck or an armoured car.
I have searched Google as you suggested with 'Digital Camo research', and have admittedly only checked the results on the first page but all the results refer to uniforms or to the use of 'Fractal or Pixelated images' for the use on vehicles, as per the last link on page 1 which again goes into the extremely complicated nature of the Fractal / digital cammo pattern in a pdf
http://www.asaas.org/ICOEIS2011/N332.pdf
IMHO....True Fractal or Digital / Pixelated will work , against the human eye to conceal a target...Dazzle in the form of large blocks will not.
Alb.
.
.
P.S. I am not very good at electronics, electrics yes..... electronics is a mystery .....Please can you explain in laymen's terms, what actually happens when you find a target and the computer locks onto it in your Leopard tank ??

Good Morning.
Ahhhh, Knowledge! *soaks it up* ) I hear and have read that making a Tank well nigh invisible using camo patterns and\or refracted light is being pursued to the point of feasibility. And as a side note, a friend who works for the DoD says railguns are the wave of the future. Whats up next?, A Bolo? I think I'll continue to live in WWII days when a three dot Ambush pattern was state of the art. Thanks, Pcomm1 and Dietrich for making my morning today.
Regards,
Painless

Hi Painless,
Glad to be of help....and I agree entirely.....as far as I am concerned WW2 is quite simply 'The best and most interesting Era for the tank'....The modern stuff is amazing, it really is..but when tanks are taking into account, the wear on the barrel and the barometric pressure.......then it ALL just becomes a video game.....unless you get hit and YOUR tank is penetrated....THEN it becomes a bit TOO REAL...
Alb.
P.S.....How did we 'discuss things' before the internet arrived ??.....I guess that we just wrote it out by hand or sent a photocopy of a page in a book...... ...and the smiley was stationary...unless you drew it in the corner of a book about 30 times and let it 'Flick Through your Fingers' to look like it was animated !!....or am I rather showing my age there ??

Hi Painless,
I just checked your profile....and I am delighted to see that YOU WILL understand the corner of a book ,stop--go animation joke! .....you are older than me .....JUST....Damn !, Please tell me where do the years go ??
Alb.

Thank you for explaining everything camo that can also be easily read on Wikipedia and I say that with all possible friendless to you and littleboy.

Since you enjoy computer Google research go and read here to help you "get it": http://www.uniteddynamics.com/camo/faq/

FYI: I can not tell you about the workings of the daylight range finder system in my full option Tamiya Leo 1 or Mr Tamiya will send his agents to harm you.



John

And I have no interest at all in WWII NAT—ZEE Camo Panzers...



John