RC Tank Warfare community hobby forum

Hi Guys,
Im building the tiger 1 and thought it would also be cool to have a Bergetiger but although google brings up some pics they are very hard to make out some of the detail,
I especialy need to find out what the towing arms looked like that folded up and fitted on the front where the spade normaly goes, and also wether the turrets where mounted backwards like all of the info points to and says,

any help apreciated

cheers
Pete

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/ ... 009012.jpg
I have cartoon model this version of Bergetiger. Polish publishing STM, scale 1:25.

http://www.hobbyhavoc.com/oldhavoc/inde ... pic=2472.0

http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=7.90

http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-V ... etiger.htm

Ok so far Ive found In 1944, three Tiger Ausf. E heavy tanks were converted by Berge-Wg to Bergetiger recovery vehicles

there where 3 Bergtigers built accourding to the Encyclopedia of German Tanks in WW2 by Chamberlain, Doyle and Gentz,

Of the 3 it apears one had no turret number and apears to be the one most photographed, and the other two as far as I can find had the turret numbers 311 & 890, but i cannot confirm this as of the 2 photographed one looks like the turret has had severe burning

The Bergetigers where issued to s.Pz.Abt.508 & where fitted with a 10 Ton winch & Crane boom for lifting such items as drive sprockets, engine covers, etc along with a foldable set of towing bars mounted in the front where the shovel normaly go'es,
There was also a reinforced towing shackle mounted to the front of the tank (presumably so they could use the tow bars to pull from either end of the tank)
The only defence these tanks had where the std MG's mounted in the front plate and i presume the turret.
The storage bin on the rear of the turret was removed to accomadate the winch and as storage was'nt needed due to low distances covered

Allot of people beleive this tank was used for breaking through defences etc but its highly unlikely as they where huge and not that quiet and as for mine laying etc they could of used a smaller lighter & faster tank for that so that theory is realy not valid.

The Bergetiger shown below was abandoned in or near Anzio Italy due to engine failure,
Some say this tank was then destroyed by the germans when they returned but thats not 100% as as there are no records to prove either way.
The 1st pic also shows the towing bars / foldable a frame on the front.



the towing bars would be the same as attached to the front of this tiger


The other thing that ive read but cannot verify is that the Turrets where mounted back to front and fixed in position which in some ways make sence having the turret turned 180 deg as it would give a better veiw when backing up and keeping an eye on the load your towing & looking out for danger from British and American troops whilst he driver drives the Tank, But on the other hand if the turret could rotate 360 degree's surely they could just turn the turret to face the wrong way when they needed to ? and i it would of been stupid to fix the turret in a single position because it would cut down on the use's of the crane.
so not convinced either way on that one.

Here's a pic of what I beleive to be the 2nd Bergetiger due to the diffrences in the surounding area's and the tree's etc



anyone know anything else or can speculate on any of this please feel free to join in

and all rights to the respective owners of the pictures as they are not mine and if the owners wish me to remove them i will

Pete

Ok been working on some clues and idea's here and there are 2 Bergtigers photographed for sure which discounts allot of the people saying its the same one with the outter wheels removed,

Note the diffrences in the pictures and some of the info i've ignored as its either to obvious or if it had of been the same Bergetiger some parts could of been removed,
to me it shows 2 diffrent Bergetigers.

Both photo's are of Bergetigers that where found in Anzio Italy.


Note the damaged exhaust & No bullit holes in the turret & the weird side mounting (anyone know what the mounting is ? or what the long thing is where the thin steel rope normaly is ?)


This pic shows no damage to the exhaust and bullit holes in the turret + a diffrent side mounting ?
This Bergetiger I think was the one that was destroyed by the germans due to the fuel pouring into the water in this pic.

Does anyone know anything else about where near Anzio the Bergetigers where destroyed as like anything else there has to be a trail to what finaly happened to them.

as for the speculation that these where used to drop exsplosives etc that could well of been one use for the them but looking at the facts i'm fairley sure there primary use was for recovery,
Heavy tank with good armour, powerfull engine, and the towing equipment would all suguest they where recovery tanks, and that they would pull the damaged tanks off the battle feilds after a battle and then the Big 18 ton famo half tracks could tow the damaged tanks back to be repaired & once the Bergetiger returned it could be used to lift items such as engine covers off and to support and lift gearbox's etc, & no the crane would not of been used to lift a tiger as it was only rated at 10-15 tons max, tigers and other tanks would of been PULLED / DRAGGED off the battle feild.
looking at the number of Tanks the Germans built compaired to the rest of the world it would seam very likely that this was the case,
the russians built 65-85,000 t34s (they lost count) and the Americans built 100,s of thousonds of shermans, the germans built 1,347 Tiger 1's & 8,800 Panzer IV's, 1,856 Panzer II's, 5,733 Panzer III's & so on, So it makes sence that the germans recovered their tanks and recycled them,

So anyone know the locations of where the Bergetigers where destroyed ?
if we can find out then we stand more chance of uncovering the truth about its purpose and what happened to them after the war.

Tiger tank crews were forbidden from towing other tigers because it put too much strain on the engine/transmission etc so I doub't the bergetigers was buit for towing tanks.

Also during the early years of the war the Germans could easily recover damaged vehicles as they were usually advancing but it became more of a problem once they were forced to retreat.

Woz wrote:Tiger tank crews were forbidden from towing other tigers because it put too much strain on the engine/transmission etc so I doub't the bergetigers was buit for towing tanks.

Also during the early years of the war the Germans could easily recover damaged vehicles as they were usually advancing but it became more of a problem once they were forced to retreat.

As the Germans where loosing the war by mid 1944 when the bergetigers where built it would make more sense to use a heavy tank for recovery and due to the order that they where forbidden to tow other tigers it could very well explaine why there are no official records of this tank,

as for the transmission they did improve several things with the engine & transmission as the war progressed plus with the weight saved by not having a main gun and filling the tank with rounds it would of made the tank lighter with less strain on the engine and gearbox,
besides which the distances the damaged tanks would have been towed by a bergetiger would of been minimal and the famo's would not of been able to recover a tank the size of a tiger easily as it took two in convoy usualy to tow 1 tiger up hill etc so how hard would it be for them with a tiger stuck in a ditch in an off road situation ?,

I know it sounds unlikley in a lot of ways that the tiger was a recovery tank but at the same time when armys are at war they do alot of strange things and if not built for recovery why the recovery equipment ?
maybe they where built for towing lighter tanks off the battle field ?

its all food for thought and either way of thinking could be right but unless we find one of them how will we ever know for sure.

Pete

Found this-





AJPress Tank power 14 Tiger VI vol 2

intresting that neither of these are 100% right from what I can tell,
the Bergetigers pictured are 2 diffrent tanks and yet the ladungsleger says only one was built,
the next part about the Bergepanzer tiger says there where 3 built,
i've heard there where 3 built and 1 was designated sd.kfz.185 but they could not confirm this as the battalion already had a panzer III with that number,
as for the crane I do not believe that it was there for clearing/laying exsplosives as all the berge tanks i've seen have had some form of lifting equipment so why not a crane ? ( I do believe the whole craine thing is over rated) and if they where for planting exsplosives a turret that could turn would be more use.
and as for tigers not towing other tigers thats fair enough but what about towing lighter tanks such as stug's, panzer III / IV's etc off the battle feild, either way one of the pictures clearly shows towing equipment,
As for the famo 18 ton half tracks they had enough problems moving tigers on anything other than a flat road and there main purpose was to tow heavy artillary guns,

So I guess unless we ever find a "bergetiger" or official paperwork about their use (which probably does'nt exist) we will never know the true use of these wonderfull beast's

on another point though Most tiger 1's are documented as to where they where destroyed and allot you can tell/find out how they met their end E.G. scrap yards towed them off or people remember them being chopped up for scrap metal or even pushed into lakes, burried etc,
now to me its pretty clear that one of the "Bergetigers" was burnt or blown up but where are the remains of these tanks and what happened to them in the end is the main question ?.

Pete