German Tank Colours....
Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:13 am
I just found this little article on another website...the guy seems to know his stuff so I have copied it across.....I will post the link at the end and it also has a Pdf of the colours which is also probably well worth a look... BUT You have to log in to view it...so if anyone belongs to this 'World of Tanks' can they see if it is any good !....I will try and join it now ......I have posted it here first to get peoples opinions......What do you think ??.....I have heard most of this before BUT it is unusual to have it all in the same article !
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I have Highlighted and also placed in Bold type an important piece onf information in the middle of the article which is easy to miss about the Correct ACTUAL colours !
Alb.
German Vehicle colours 1935 - 1945
There is a long running discussion on these actual colours and I will try to clear it all up. As a former army officer of 22 years standing It is a hobby of mine to research these things. I'm also a professional modeller building comissions for customers and also I restore these vehicles from wrecks and abandoned vehicles from swamps, rivers and lakes to as close to factory fresh and fully working as it is possible to do. The two vehicles I have at the moment is a Panzer V 'G' Variant (better known to you all as a Panther) and a JadgPanther. Both these vehicles were recovered from a river in eastern Germany (where there are many more and I have the only salvage rights) and restored back to full working order and that includes both 75mm and L/56 88mm Main guns which are capable of firing both live and blank rounds.
In the process of restoring these two vehicles (left factory 29th March 1945, delivered to Gross Deutchland Division, 30th March 1945, Disabled and dumped 2nd April 1945) I was able to take paint chips and have them tested. I also had the luck to be able to have access to a german companies archive where I was also able to study official paint chips and paint orders covering all three arms of the german military for WWII.
For a modeller this is the equivalent of finding a large nugget of gold at the bottom of a fast flowing dirty river.
Let me go into this deeper (so to speak)
The modern RAL system in Germany is not what it was during the Third Reich (am I allowed to put that????). At the end of the war Germany was understanably in chaos, lots of things went missing and was destroyed (documentation etc) which leavs us as modellers and gamers at a loss. Eventually things do turn up which help us. During the de-nazifying process after WWII everything in Germany was put under the microscope by the allies in order to eradicate this regime - EVEN THE RAL COLOUR SYSTEM.
This means that the modern RAL system that lots of people use to paint their WWII tanks as models is wrong. Why? because every colour used by the third reich was removed from that RAL system and replaced by a different shade/hue as part of the process. This is why, for modellers the modern colours are incorrect.
How do we get round this? By examining recovered vehicles and trolling through company, public, government and private archives where possible to uncover as much detail as possible. It is impossible to gain correct shades and colours from black and white photos of the period and also the limited use of colour film at that time also, whilst it does give us a look at colours it cannot be taken as gospel because of over or under exposure of the colours, time of day, daylight....... etc etc etc.
What do we rely on then and the answer is paint chips. Paint samples from recovered vehcles and paint chip samples from archives.
Now believe it or not, the two vehicles I have have a different yellow on them. One is a shade of Dunkelgelb (Dark Yellow) and the other is Dunkelgelb Nach Muster (dark yellow after pattern). Now research using original paint orders and paint chips show that these two yellows had THREE shade variants each making 6 shade variants of Dunkelgelb/dunkelgelb nach muster. There were five shades of the olive green and four shades of the red brown. THis is of course for vehicles on the change in February 1943. THere were variants of this camouflage.
But lets step back a bit to the panzer grey that came in in 1940. THe German tanks in this game are wrong. the panzer grey used was much darker than the game tanks. For those modellers amongst us and the devs who may choose to read this then the 100% shade match to the original unfaded paint chip from official paint orders can be found in the Vallejo model colour range. the paint colour is number 70862. Paint a large square of this onto some thick white card. Give it 24 hours to dry correctly and then take a look under different lights, time of day and weather conditions. It changes hue! All german military paints colours did that and the name for this is mimetic. This is why their late war camouflage was so good.
Going back to the late war paints. These changed a few times and depended on camouflage trials and paint stocks available (allied bombing was having a really good disruptive effect.) Now the actual paint paste used was formulated according to the orders so that the paste matched the colours on the chip (when dry)and that is where a modeller starts. After that then you have to look at the thinning mediums used and the quantities. No tank was exatly the same shade when it came out of the factory or was painted in the field. the main mediums used was:
Water - This made the colour stay the same or a little lighter.
actual paste thinner - this had the effect of keeping the paint colour to a +/- 5% shade either way from the chip colour depending on the thinner mix ratio.
Fuel. Yes - even at this time panzer crews and factories used petrol as a thinner for the paste! this darkened the colour by 20%+ dependent of the mix ratio.
SO where does this leave us as modellers and gamers?
In actual fact it gives us lots of leeway so long as we start with the original paste colour mix. These colours are referenced along with more information on interior colours etc in the attached document (PDF). I do hope that this helps us all to make a better game (and models)
http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php? ... and-tones/
.
I have Highlighted and also placed in Bold type an important piece onf information in the middle of the article which is easy to miss about the Correct ACTUAL colours !
Alb.
German Vehicle colours 1935 - 1945
There is a long running discussion on these actual colours and I will try to clear it all up. As a former army officer of 22 years standing It is a hobby of mine to research these things. I'm also a professional modeller building comissions for customers and also I restore these vehicles from wrecks and abandoned vehicles from swamps, rivers and lakes to as close to factory fresh and fully working as it is possible to do. The two vehicles I have at the moment is a Panzer V 'G' Variant (better known to you all as a Panther) and a JadgPanther. Both these vehicles were recovered from a river in eastern Germany (where there are many more and I have the only salvage rights) and restored back to full working order and that includes both 75mm and L/56 88mm Main guns which are capable of firing both live and blank rounds.
In the process of restoring these two vehicles (left factory 29th March 1945, delivered to Gross Deutchland Division, 30th March 1945, Disabled and dumped 2nd April 1945) I was able to take paint chips and have them tested. I also had the luck to be able to have access to a german companies archive where I was also able to study official paint chips and paint orders covering all three arms of the german military for WWII.
For a modeller this is the equivalent of finding a large nugget of gold at the bottom of a fast flowing dirty river.
Let me go into this deeper (so to speak)
The modern RAL system in Germany is not what it was during the Third Reich (am I allowed to put that????). At the end of the war Germany was understanably in chaos, lots of things went missing and was destroyed (documentation etc) which leavs us as modellers and gamers at a loss. Eventually things do turn up which help us. During the de-nazifying process after WWII everything in Germany was put under the microscope by the allies in order to eradicate this regime - EVEN THE RAL COLOUR SYSTEM.
This means that the modern RAL system that lots of people use to paint their WWII tanks as models is wrong. Why? because every colour used by the third reich was removed from that RAL system and replaced by a different shade/hue as part of the process. This is why, for modellers the modern colours are incorrect.
How do we get round this? By examining recovered vehicles and trolling through company, public, government and private archives where possible to uncover as much detail as possible. It is impossible to gain correct shades and colours from black and white photos of the period and also the limited use of colour film at that time also, whilst it does give us a look at colours it cannot be taken as gospel because of over or under exposure of the colours, time of day, daylight....... etc etc etc.
What do we rely on then and the answer is paint chips. Paint samples from recovered vehcles and paint chip samples from archives.
Now believe it or not, the two vehicles I have have a different yellow on them. One is a shade of Dunkelgelb (Dark Yellow) and the other is Dunkelgelb Nach Muster (dark yellow after pattern). Now research using original paint orders and paint chips show that these two yellows had THREE shade variants each making 6 shade variants of Dunkelgelb/dunkelgelb nach muster. There were five shades of the olive green and four shades of the red brown. THis is of course for vehicles on the change in February 1943. THere were variants of this camouflage.
But lets step back a bit to the panzer grey that came in in 1940. THe German tanks in this game are wrong. the panzer grey used was much darker than the game tanks. For those modellers amongst us and the devs who may choose to read this then the 100% shade match to the original unfaded paint chip from official paint orders can be found in the Vallejo model colour range. the paint colour is number 70862. Paint a large square of this onto some thick white card. Give it 24 hours to dry correctly and then take a look under different lights, time of day and weather conditions. It changes hue! All german military paints colours did that and the name for this is mimetic. This is why their late war camouflage was so good.
Going back to the late war paints. These changed a few times and depended on camouflage trials and paint stocks available (allied bombing was having a really good disruptive effect.) Now the actual paint paste used was formulated according to the orders so that the paste matched the colours on the chip (when dry)and that is where a modeller starts. After that then you have to look at the thinning mediums used and the quantities. No tank was exatly the same shade when it came out of the factory or was painted in the field. the main mediums used was:
Water - This made the colour stay the same or a little lighter.
actual paste thinner - this had the effect of keeping the paint colour to a +/- 5% shade either way from the chip colour depending on the thinner mix ratio.
Fuel. Yes - even at this time panzer crews and factories used petrol as a thinner for the paste! this darkened the colour by 20%+ dependent of the mix ratio.
SO where does this leave us as modellers and gamers?
In actual fact it gives us lots of leeway so long as we start with the original paste colour mix. These colours are referenced along with more information on interior colours etc in the attached document (PDF). I do hope that this helps us all to make a better game (and models)
http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php? ... and-tones/
, I couldnt afford to he he . Joking apart would this make the tank more flamable even when its dryed . Simular issue with zinnerit but I think that was proven wrong post war .
