New debate on the issue of your choice in battle

[Saxondog]

The chart demonstrates the reason for long range penetration by German Tanks,the higher velocity guns and ammunition.Simple,bigger charge,larger projectile,more force of impact and penetration before detonation. result as we have debated,German firepower could hit and destroy other tanks before they could obtain the close range they needed for their ammunition to be effective.

Second point,the picture does show the basic size difference in not only the shell,but the actual projectile.

The German 88 was a powerful weapon,so with the question being 10 to 1 odds,any battlefield,exclusive tank to tank conflict without considering OTHER FACTORS which tank would you chose?

And again I will say great job members,fine thread and beneficial as well to many of the new members not as versed in the information presented.

Now I have posted a question about British Armor,the CENTURION Tank. And I could really use some feedback about this fine tank. So please contribute to that thread as well,and certainly we may all learn,and benefit from everyone's view. Thanks guys,this was a lively thread with many new views being posted.

http://www.rctankwarfare.co.uk/forums/v ... ion#p76412" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Woz]

Hi Woz,
I know that this is a silly question but you mention that ...
"In 1945, at least two Mk V tank leftovers were used by German garrison in defense of Berlin. It's unknown whom the tanks were captured from. Both tanks were destroyed in the subsequent battle in Berlin.
Please can I ask ....which Mk V tank are you refering to and from which country
Alb

I've read somewhere that it was Russia and this site seems to think so-

http://beute.narod.ru/Beutepanzer/uk/MK_V/Mk_V.htm

[Saxondog]

Amazing, excellent photos, will have to add this to the list of tank choices. Could you imagine fighting in that? The last picture appears to be more recent,and restored version as well. To bad can't really make out the coloring.

Thanks for sharing the link,very cool.

[Dietrich]

WOW Woz,
I was expecting a WW2 tank from some allied power say a French or even an Italian one......I was NOT expecting.....a British tank FROM WORLD WAR ONE ........Somehow that strikes quite a deep chord in me and shows the INCREDIBLE DESPERATION.....that there must have been amongst the surrounded and totally hopeless defenders of Berlin in the final weeks and days of the war.........I think that we can all count ourselves lucky that we ARE not ........
...................and hopefully WILL NOT....EVER...be in such a terrible situation .
Alb.

[Saxondog]

Makes you wonder why so many fought so hard? Must have been terrible, And the peace was not the end,How many went behind the Iron Curtin to never return after fighting so hard. Grossdeutschland survivors were turned over to the Russians,and certainly some evil men deserved a terrible fate,but so many were lost after the peace to the other maniac STALIN,and that sick individual and his Gestapo equivalent the NKVD.

But that's another subject,and one better left alone. That would certainly be a great RC 1/16 SCALE Model to build, I wonder how difficult that would be? anyone ever built the MK-V in 1/16 scale? What a build that would make.

[mustclime]

does this count?


http://www.kartonwork.pl/forum/viewtopi ... sc&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[FreakyDude]

kind of makes me wonder if someone had photoshop in the 40's lol In the article it says this George guy had been paraded around on one of these Mark V's.
I am kind of inclined to believe this Tank possibly was a war trophy on display and the pics are just shots of the tank in the square.
I can believe that in the last months of the war things were that desperate to use anything at hand to defend the city though.

Iam still in my Tiger 1 killing everybody I see though lol
(For the record the Centurion so far is the best I have seen to go up against the Tiger but I still think frontal armour and the big 88 is too much of an advantage )

[Saxondog]

The odds were not very fair,20+ against two new Tigers,fresh company newly formed.The crews were unsure,and the battle began. But the results were reported by the crews,the words of men who actually fought the battles,made the History and Lived to fight another day.

On 13 December 1944, the III Battalion of the Panzer Regiment was redesignated Heavy Tank Battalion Grossdeutschland (schwere Panzer Abteilung GD). The companies were renumbered 1, 2 and 3 Company. The 1st Company received new Tiger II Ausf B "King Tigers".

Grossdeutschland Started with One company of 9 Tigers,1 command Tiger NUMBERED S01 and two Platoons numbered S10-13,S20=23. From the start they faced more Russian Armor,at almost every encounter,this seems to be a reoccurring story with Grossdeutschland Panzer units.

And in the last months of the war,fighting with some new designs,and many Factory rebuilt Tigers GD continued to face more Russian Armor than they could ever hope to field.

Men like Sgt,Larson,one of my favorite GD Panzer commanders who Survived the battles from the Early days of the Eastern Front to the END.

See this first ENCOUNTER where GD Tigers faced 10to 1 or 20 to 2 odds gave me the idea for this post. I knew my choice and why,I could list the books,the reports,the statistics,the DATA. But it remained the same throughout the Eastern Front,more and more T34, and fewer and fewer Panzers. Many books telling the same story from different views,yet the sight is always the same,more Russian Tanks against fewer German tanks.

Grossdeutschland Tiger S13 from the first GD Tiger company,their first Tigers ever in Battle and the results 10to1 odds

[Saxondog]

Perhaps now we could read about the great tank battles where Russian T34's faced 10to1 odds and the devastation they inflicted on the Tigers,the massive destruction of the Russian T34 against the overwhelming odds,the mighty fire power of the Russian 76.2mm armor piercing shells slamming through the German Tigers armor,the destruction of these larger than life targets........

[mini_bolo]

Are we still talking about tank choice with 10:1 odds? If so, I have a couple.

I'd take ten M10 GMCs* against a Tiger I. Location can be just about anywhere besides a mudflat, although ideally in open, hilly country. Reason for my choice? The M10's 76mm gun was surprisingly good at cracking Tigers. Sure the M10's turret had to be manually cranked around, but the gun depression and the overall speed of the M10 meant that it was rather easy for a small group of them to flank and destroy even the toughest opponents. Besides, you never said which side of the 10:1 odds we had to be on

Alternatively, I'd take a Char B1 bis vs. anything the Germans can throw at me in early 1940. Location: Somewhere in France. Reason for choice? 60mm of armor, a 75mm howitzer, and a 47mm gun. If the Germans are lucky they'll have a few Panzer IIIs and Panzer IVs to throw at me. The Panzer III at the time mounted a 37mm gun in a body clad in 30mm of armor. The Panzer IV had the same armor thickness, but used a 75mm howitzer. But the Germans didn't have that many Panzer IIIs or IVs available during the invasion of France. In all likelihood the only things my bis would run up against would be Panzer IIs, Czech LT vz. 35s, and Czech LT vz 38s.


*Don't give me that crap about it being a Tank Destroyer. It mounts a gun in a fully rotating turret on a tracked chassis. It's a tank, no matter what the people at the time called it.