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more help

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:46 pm
by fleshpedler
Sorry to bother you guys but i am still after more info on the tiger tank know as 205
if anybody has anything piccy wise or known info then please pm me ,......
thanks for any help i can get...............
Fleshy........................

Re: more help

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:23 pm
by jrc
hi fleshy
this is the only photo of 205 I can find at the moment, don't know if it's of any use.

ross
w-wittmanbocage.jpg
w-wittmanbocage.jpg (162.47 KiB) Viewed 959 times

Re: more help

Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:49 pm
by fleshpedler
Thanks all the same Ross ,but it would appear to be the most looked at 205 to date......but please keep looking lads......thanks.................
Fleshy...............

Re: more help

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:09 am
by 971wright
Hi Peter The info I have is that 205 was whittmans tiger on d day see here http://www.panzerace.net/english/pz_oob.asp?page=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He was company commander ,so he could take any tank he wanted ,if his was being fixed,its very hard to nail down for sure ,if he used this tank alot or if he took others,it looks like he didnt use it at
Villers-Bocage.
As for the Tank it was a late model the camo pattern(i have found so far) was different to the pattern that Tony used,even this is debatable,I dont know what info Tony had.


regards pete

Re: more help

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:37 am
by wibblywobbly
Does this one help?

I have also just been reading a bit about some work done by some historians slueths, who have access to crew logs, archive photo's and personal accounts. It may just be that the whole Villers Bocage legend was manufactured as a propoganda item. These guys have looked at timeframes both English and German, as well as photographic evidence taken following the incident, showing both damaged tanks, and the countryside, and to cut a very long story short, the official Wittman version does not fit with the evidence.

The debate continues of course.

Re: more help

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:34 pm
by BigPanzer
Hi Wibbly,

This is interesting. I have always wondered about the "cricket scores" racked up by some of the German fighter aces and how accurate they were. How many "hits" that were recorded as "kills" for propoganda purposes or because of genuine error will probably never be known and I'm sure the same happened with armour.
There is no doubt that Wittman was good and this is proved by the very fact that he survived for so long. But his score card on the Eastern Front, both tanks and anti tank guns does seem hard to believe so one has to ask how much of this score was truly down to him and how much was down to others. Personally I think that quite a bit of the Wittman legend is no more than propoganda and he was very much a manufactured hero who began to believe some of the bull written about him.
Also, I think the man who deserves a lot of the credit for Wittmans fame is his gunner, Bobby Woll.

Do you have any further info or reading material on what really happened at Villers Bocage? You have seriously got my attention with your post.

Thanks,

Peter

PS Sorry to hijack your thread Fleshy. Possibly the person most likely to be able to help you is Rivetcounter.

Re: more help

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:58 pm
by fleshpedler
Thank you gentlemen for your help ,unfortunatly i have these piccs and the more i look at them and cross reference with the info i have and the line drawings ,i feel there is going to be a great deal of modding to do before i can proceed with the build and painting ......
But please don,t stop looking ,as i am very grateful for all the help you guys are providing..
Fleshy....................

Re: more help

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:39 pm
by wibblywobbly
There has been a very long discussion on Villers Bocage on the Missing Lynx forum.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/th ... f+wittmann

As for the pics of Tiger 205, I have scoured the web, to no avail. If there are other pics then I would take a guess that they are hidden away in a book somewhere, and no one has scanned the pics.

One place that it might be worth putting in a request, and that is the site where all of the old Panzer commanders chat about old times. If they can't lay their hands on a pic, then no one can. I used to have it in my shortcuts but following 'the great pc crash of 2006' I lost it. I can't find it now, but the site was packed with private pics taken by troops during the war that will never appear anywhere else.

or:

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/

And here's an interview with Bobbly Voll:

Pz6 team: Thank you for granting us your Time Herr Woll please could you tell us about your own experiences in the Tiger.

Bobby: You're welcome. Well I recieved orders to transfer from my Stug in the Autumn of '42 to Paderborn for training on the new 88gun of the tiger. We basically sat in a mock up turret in the middle of a field & fire shells at wooden targets at various ranges along side me was a trainee loader Wille Schreff I think his name was. Anyway having had so much time in the static Stug where the driver did the targeting for me this was luxury. I found the gun sights far superior to anything else in the Army so hitting the targets was no problem. Even on the move.. Once I finished my training I was sent to Russia & given Tiger number 1331 along with Michael(Wittman) & we were sent to Kiev along with our new battalion. I will never forget our first engagement against the Red Army. Our Tiger had broken down 3 times on the road & Michael was really angry. I remeber him kicking the filters at the back & cursing the machine demanding that the mechanics scrap the thing & give us a new one. It seemed to work as we were given a new Tiger number S31 while the other one was fixed. I climbed in & got myself comfortable. While we drove up to the rest of our unit. It was quite warm in the tank even though it was October. Michael sighted a column of T-34's at about 3000 meters. We quickly went into battle order & radio'ed our sighting. I hit 3 T-34's at about 1500meters & then we turned to the guns the soviets were unpacking. Supported by Jurgen Brandt we fired 2 or 3 High Explosive shells right into the middle of the guns & knocked them out. By this time Michael was shouting targets & we were getting tired. The turret was starting to get very hot with all the work & the heat coming from the breech. I hit about another 8 tanks before we moved agin. The Russians weren't quite sure where we were as we were behind small hillocks firing a couple of rounds then edging up the side to hit them again. They must have been in shock because their tanks just sat there a while like the targets at Paderborn. I thought "this was too easy" It was then that a shell thumped off the front armour with a large clang sound. It didn't penetrate but we were all still quite shocked. I remember Heinz Kling came up & started mocking Michael about showing off. The Russian shell had knocked off some of our zimmerit & made a dent about the size of my fist right in the middle of the front armour. We were all relieved as had we been in a weaker tank it would have killed us all.

Pz6 Team: According to records your tank destroyed 20 T-34's & 23 guns would you say that was correct ?
Bobby: Ja that would be about right. We had special engineers that were there for salvage & it was them who normally told us the numbers. We then counted how many rounds we had fired & the position of the kills & worked it out. Actually it was more like 22 T-34's as there were 54 wrecked tanks left behind & I fired 25 AP rounds. As for the guns I wouldn't like to say as Jurgen fired more rounds at them then me & I think the total was around 40 destroyed I think he killed more than me.
( Bobby continued on for about another hour about his adventures in the east all along similiar lines to the above.)

Pz6 Team: You recieved your Knights Cross on January 15th 1944 that must have been a proud moment for you.
Bobby: It was actually the morning of the 16th when I was told I would be getting the Knights Cross. I was very proud as I was an enlisted man & to recieve such a high reward was a great honour. Michael was also delighted for me as he had got his 3 days earlier. Personally I think he was a bit jealous. By this time we were becoming quite famous back in Germany & were getting asked to do these propoganda things which was a nice break from the fighting.
Pz 6 Team: Do you think the other crews were envious of you & Michael ?
Bobby: No not really, some of the older hands made comments but Michael normally shut them up. I just ignored them & got on with my job. The younger newer crewmen seemed to be over awed with our achievements but I told them that if we didn't kill the enemy first we would be dead & there were always more of them than us.

Pz 6 Team: You were in command of your own tank by the time of the Normandy battles how did that feel ?
Bobby: I was quite sad to leave Michael & the others as we had formed quite a team & friendship. But on the other hand it was a proud moment for me. I tried to take all I had learned into my new tank which was number 335. I always remember our first battle was aginst some churchill tanks around the town of Bayeux. I remember wishing I was behind the gun. My new gunner was Gert Von Wend he was only 19 years old but he was quite good , well he had a good teacher! We managed to hit three of them before allied planes came in dropping bombs we retreated back into a small wood & hit two halftracked vehicles. The allies had many planes in the sky so we retreated as far as we could & camouflaged the tank. My other two comrades lost their taks to the bombs. It was quite different than the East when we could roam about looking for targets. We waited until dark before creeping away dragging half the wood with us. We had to be very careful as there were enemy tanks & infantry everywhere. By morning we were joined by a couple of Panzer IV's from Panzer Lehr which was in the area. We mounted an attack aginst a small column of light tanks & forced them back I think we destroyed 8 or 10 of them . It was then that my tank was hit by rockets from an Allied plane. I was very badly hurt & only the radio operator Hans Dremein got out alive. We were taken back to Germany to recover. It was then that I heard about Michael & his destruction of all those tanks at Villers-Bocage. I heard about it on the radio. I wished I had been with him. I was informed about Michaels death by a Major & Hildegard who came to visit me. She was in a terrible state I remember both of us embracing & weeping. I was told his tank was hit by a plane & he died instantly. After the war I heard reports that it was tanks that got him. I find this unbelievable as in all my time with him I never saw a tank get close enough to inflict a killing shot you see Michael had eyes everywhere & a sixth sense for danger. I still visit his grave today.

Pz 6 Team: It must have been a sad time for you. But you did return to action.
Bobby: Oh yes I was sent back to the front in a Tiger II for the Ardennes offensive but this tank broke down without me ever firing a shot. I got a Tiger I from Paderborn & fought around the Ruhr area before losing that one to an Anti tank gun that blew our track off & wrecked the drive sprocket. We were then given a Panzer IV which was a bit of an insult to us. I found that we were having to fire more shells to just stop targets at ranges that the Tigers gun would have blown them up. I remember all the useless engagements & battles we were ordered into with a couple of tanks or Stugs against entire enemy armoured divisions at this time it just seemed so pointless. We were at the stage of just giving up & surrendering but we had heard stories of prisoners being shot as they surrendered so we stayed with our tank. I found out after the war that this was common on the
Russian Front rather than the West. I will always be thankful for the end of the war because I had had enough killing & destruction long before that day. I had lost most of my fellow comrades & good friends by the wars end it was a very sad time for us.

We thanked Bobby for his time & fascinating accounts from one of the wars great tank crewmen. He was quite emotional towards the end of the interview so we decided it best to leave him with his memories. Sadly Bobby died five years later before we had time to meet again.

Re: more help

Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:21 pm
by fleshpedler
Wow thanks for that Wibbly old friend ,takes some sinking in .........thoses tanks lads are a breed apart.....
Fleshy..........................

Re: more help

Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:20 am
by jrc
You notice from Woll's interview it's clear he wasn't with Wittman at Villers Bocage although some stories claim he was.

Ross