Michael Wittmann Tiger Ace

[Mithras]

Here's a summary of 12th SS massscres of Canadian POWs.
https://www.junobeach.org/canada-in-wwi ... massacres/

As historians/researchers/authors look into more sources other than just generals' puffed up memoires and military college textbooks, it becomes pretty obvious that the Wehrmacht (Heer, Luftwaffe, etc) was a pretty nasty group and had few qualms about joining in on SS and Einsatzgruppen--and their likes--activities. The days of the "clean" Wehrmacht are long over. And that's a good thing.

Mike.

Well said!

[jarndice]

Armies around the world have been guilty of war crimes since such wickedness was designated as a war crime, The British army has committed such dreadful acts and as an ex-serviceman i get no pleasure saying it,
I was present when the platoon was briefed on a forthcoming operation, The Platoon commander handed over to the Sgt Major who warned us to treat any civvies with respect,
Someone (Not me) said "Ooh goodo rape and pillage"
The Sgt Major ordered TEN SHUN and drawing his Browning Hi-Power he said If I catch any man acting in such a fashion I will shoot him where he stands
DO YOU UNDERSTAND.
We did and the job went ahead with positive results but the warning we got that day stayed with me for the rest of my service.
Without such discipline a breakdown in civilised behaviour is far too easy especially when you are literally fighting for your life and if a mate is hurt or worse retribution seems the right thing to do but that is when your training should take over but it only takes one bad apple for dicipline to go out the window and everyone joins in.
I would never condone such behaviour but I do understand how easy it is for such actions to occur.
Sorry for being heavy but I think it needed saying.

[Mithras]

It’s a fair point. The distinction I think is that, in instances such as this, we are looking at a military culture that -encouraged- such behavior, whereas to others, it was (and is) anathema. This is not political statement (human rights are not political) a huge point of contention with many veterans I know and the pror administration here was the pardoning of more than one soldier/sailor/airman/maribe tried and found indisputably guilty of crimes against humanity by the former Chief Executive. It was unconsionable. But that’s the distinction in action: most reasonable people, irrespective of politics, are aghast at such behaviors.

[Meter rat]

Speaking as an Historian, I feel it important to point out that Wittman was a true believer - a dyed in the wool member of the Nazi Party who joined before membership came mandatory. He is credibly linked to crimes against humanity. He was no hero, and deserves no accolades as such. This isn’t a matter of “winners writing the history.” It’s simply a matter of record.

Edit:

Probably also worth noting that many of his “kills” were unarmed vehicles, not tanks. According to a British veteran I spoke to, off the record as I can’t provide citation, one of those kills was being used as an ambulance.

Despite the problematic histories written about him, you’d be better served by looking into the career of someone like Kurt Knispel.

Mr Mithras. May I please use your writings? With full credit to yourself, to assist in giving others correct information.

Thank you.
It was worded so eloquently.

[jarndice]

You were doing fine until that last sentence,
In the company of your comrades any one of which you would give your life for as they would for you the spirit of Mateship (Herman knows what I mean) has a priority over almost anything,
Right or wrong has nothing to do with it which is why I emphasised the importance of dicipline.

[michaelwhittmann]

“War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it,”

General Sherman to the City Fathers of Atlanta 1864.

[Jimster]

Well said.

[HERMAN BIX]

I think we all accept that regardless of the good side or bad side, good and bad deeds were done which were and are today reprehensible.
We all that live in the calmness of life gifted to us by those gone and lost before must temper our outrage by knowing that when being melted in the crucible of rage and combat a person will do anything to survive, and anything to ensure the safety of their comrades in arms, or country men, without thought of judgement by those that were not there , and cannot in any good conscience judge those that were by some utopian belief that evil is unacceptable, when these same people in general, are often the very ones that place people in harms way to conduct evil for their own failings in diplomacy and tolerant understanding.

I have visited the huge graves of all combatants in areas of Europe, Italy and here in Australia where POW's were killed and suffered at the hands of their captors , with the solemn honour to be in the presence of those that have fought the fight they did not choose, against those that they did not know , in places they wouldnt have heard of or been to if not for those that controlled them, only to never leave....................

I hold ALL members of any armed forces that wear their nations uniform with pride or even reluctance and carry out the wishes of those in charge with the highest esteem and wonder if I could measure up if put in the same position.
I never consider the reasons or ideologies they fought & died for , only the sense of loss any what might have been had things been different, and the waste.

[michaelwhittmann]

" A soldier isn't haunted by what he is ordered to do; he's haunted by what he does on his own and
comes to enjoy".

A US Korean war veteran with RCT 31 (Task Force Faith) who fought the Chinese near the Chosin Reservoir.
The unit entered the battle with 2,500 men; came out with 385.

[Mithras]

You were doing fine until that last sentence,
In the company of your comrades any one of which you would give your life for as they would for you the spirit of Mateship (Herman knows what I mean) has a priority over almost anything,
Right or wrong has nothing to do with it which is why I emphasised the importance of dicipline.

I'm not implying that you were wrong, or indeed that I disagree with you. What I'm saying is that most sapient beings recognize that something is inherently wrong, and will at least be given pause. Discipline of course is essential, especially in close quarters within a combat unit (or in any special service or civil service unit.) What I am saying is that distinction between say, the Nazis and the Allies during the Second World War, is that for the most part the average Allied soldier knew, from the top down, that to commit a war crime was both anathaema to his morality and to the morality of his brothers and sisters in arms. That discipline remained in effect for the most part because it was encouraged, from the top down. Because a British NCO, for example, would feel no fear in drawing his weapon if anybody within the section even suggested committing an atrocity. This simply didn't exist, for the most part, in the German military infrastructure. You followed your orders. You were given leeway to accomplish those orders as you saw fit, but you followed them. "I was only following orders" is often criticized for a reason.

Edit: I want strongly to emphasize that, though my wording was poor, I strongly support your sentiment. As such, I’ve removed that final sentence. I have been ill, and my words sometimes fail me.