M3 Lee from an M4 Sherman

[Herr Dr. Professor]

For a good start, what have you for reference works?

[Andy427sc]

Herr Doktor Professor,

At the moment, just stuff from the web in terms of photos, this tread and another I found on another forum by a guy in the US who has done one, which included modification of the M4 running gear to more visually represent the M3 arrangement.

86C4F39D-FC15-493E-977A-071734239482.jpeg (85.98 KiB) Viewed 1347 times

We do not choose to do this because it will be easy, we choose to do this because it will be hard...

... but we do not expect it to take us to the end of the decade..

If you have any recommended sources of good intel, we humbly request the benefit of your wisdom...

Many Thanks to you, and to those of you yet to come...

[SimonCornes]

Hi Andy
As you can see, I am on the same 'crusade'. I got my M3 conversion from Dave as soon as he got them in stock. I won't be starting work on mine for awhile but I can tell you that some of your 10 commandments are relatively easy to do but others will require some thinking and a bit of fiddling.

You asked about references. I wanted a single volume to give me a good steer as there are 5 or 6 books about and I could end up spending a fortune and using a lot of time reading them all so, as of this minute I have just 2. The first is by David Doyle - a man who has written loads of tank books and at least 3 on the M3. The one I have is called 'M3 Lee Grant - the design, production and service of the M3 Lee Medium Tank, The foundation of America's tank industry'. This is a 470 page, around A4 size but 30mm thick book. Not cheap although mine cost around £30 if you shop around. It was published last year by AFV Modeller publications. The good points are very usefully sized photographs. The not so good are that there are a lot of photos that cover broadly the same thing - photos taken in factories showing tanks being built but you can always find something in each photo to help you understand what you're looking at.
The downsides to me were nothing by way of colour profiles or scale drawings so only part of the story - but I'm glad I've got it.
My second reference is a pearl of a book - Classic AFV's No 2 Lee & Grant by Ken Jons and Peter Chamberlain. Published in 1977 - An Airfix Book - by Patrick Stevens Ltd. Now in my opinion this works very well with the first book because it includes 1/32 scale drawings of both the Lee and the Grant along with some side profiles - in black and white. It was produced as an aid to building the Airfix 1/32 kit and it might be factually not as accurate as more recent publications but it has the drawings that I can refer to. I think it cost me around £10. I don't intend to buy any more references, I think this pair will do.

I haven't read the Airfix book yet but what I have discovered from the 'big' book is that all Grants had road wheels with holes between the spokes. I have also discovered that the British army used what was known as the WD-212 track. This was very good for desert sand. So, using a HL Sherman with the later 'chevron' type tracks I need to grind off the chevron on each track. The US Lees had a rectangular rubber track pad but the Grants had a slightly more complicated shape. I only discovers this at the weekend so I'm thinking I might cast the rubber pads in resin and glue them on!

You also have to watch the track sand guard shape. Earlier ones were knocked up in Egypt whereas later ones were factory fabricated in the USA and the shape is slightly different so look at photos.

You also need to move the position of the return roller at the top of each suspension unit. In the Sherman they trail, in the M3 they are smack bang on the top!

Then we come to the two guns. You might find that the range of movement you are trying to achieve for the 75mm is too much (check references) but I am intending to fit a relay which will be operated by the HL smoke unit button on the transmitter and will allow either movement of the 75 or the turret to be selected. Neat if I can make to work! But the range of movement between the turret traverse and the 75 will require some sort of cam as one is 340 degrees and the other might be 30 degrees in total.

Oh, I'd operate the HL smoke unit with an on/off switch so nothing lost.

And finally the Grant turret is not a good shape so I am hoping to acquire a 3D printed one.

Not a project to be rushed!!

[lmcq11]

And finally the Grant turret is not a good shape so I am hoping to acquire a 3D printed one.

The Vandra kit is a Later hull model without right side door and cupola (like the Australian). Not sure where Vandra took their measurements but the Lee turret is almost 19mm too small in diameter. You'll find out that the Vandra roof is too small to accommodate a turret ring of the proper dimension. So, this impacts the Grant turret as well. Then you'll see that the upper front armor plate is also wrong because of it, the sponson gun mount is too far back, rear hull too long, exhaust box too big, etc. The Vandra or Haya kits conversions are for guys who want something that looks like an M3 on a Sherman hull from away and that are not too worried about accuracy. People in general think the M3 is ugly anyway and do not care much about accuracy like they do for their Tiger. I personally like to see an M3 with an M3 suspension and two side doors but that's just me. Once you start changing something on this kit, it leads to another. Having build two M3 myself with the Vandra conversion, i have some history with this kit. I suggest you either keep it like it is, or you go all the way. My first attempt was some hybrid with half measures but i was never really happy with it. Good luck

[Herr Dr. Professor]

I am away from home today, so I’m away from the Nahverteidugungsbuecherschrank. I hope to have opportunity tomorrow to put some M3 sources in the reference section. I welcome you to PM me with a reminder if you don’t see them by Thursday morning.

[SimonCornes]

And finally the Grant turret is not a good shape so I am hoping to acquire a 3D printed one.

The Vandra kit is a Later hull model without right side door and cupola (like the Australian). Not sure where Vandra took their measurements but the Lee turret is almost 19mm too small in diameter. You'll find out that the Vandra roof is too small to accommodate a turret ring of the proper dimension. So, this impacts the Grant turret as well. Then you'll see that the upper front armor plate is also wrong because of it, the sponson gun mount is too far back, rear hull too long, exhaust box too big, etc. The Vandra or Haya kits conversions are for guys who want something that looks like an M3 on a Sherman hull from away and that are not too worried about accuracy. People in general think the M3 is ugly anyway and do not care much about accuracy like they do for their Tiger. I personally like to see an M3 with an M3 suspension and two side doors but that's just me. Once you start changing something on this kit, it leads to another. Having build two M3 myself with the Vandra conversion, i have some history with this kit. I suggest you either keep it like it is, or you go all the way. My first attempt was some hybrid with half measures but i was never really happy with it. Good luck

Yes, I forgot to mention the need to scratch build a right hand turret door - or probably copy in resin the left hand and reverse the hinges. In addition the 75mm barrel is basically a tube without taper but probably has a 6mm internal diameter but if you want BB firing - and that would be a tin of worms for the BB magazine!

Thank you though for highlighting how imperfect this pretty expensive conversion is. But that not withstanding - and if you're an RC boat man then you'll know all about stand of scale - it broadly looks like an M3 but has obviously been adapted in some ways to fit the HL lower hull, after a fashion. I for one have always like the shape of the M3 - there are plenty of ugly tanks like the KV 2 for one, off the top of my head. But where do you stop with this conversion? I haven't checked the angles of the plates against a plan I trust - or photos, even better. But it looks broadly okay. The Grant turret is very wrong though. Like a biscuit tin whereas the real thing is quite subtley shaped but it looks like a fun conversion, if you are prepared to accept that the Vandra conversion is a starting point and not perfect out of the box.

[Andy427sc]

Thanks all for the useful info..

It looks like this is not going to be the build I wasn’t expecting in that I was thinking it was going to be a challenge in the technicalities of getting the thing to work but it seems like there’s bag of spanner’s to be had just putting the thing together as well.

So let’s cut to the chase, the turret being too small is going to bug the hell out of me so it will need to be fixed somehow. Sounds like I need to source an alternative turret/turret ring for a start

fixing the door is doable...

I was aware of the M3 suspension difference and that is definitely on my to do list. I’ve messaged Vandra as their RAM II kit has the bits to do that very conversion but isn’t in the M3 kit...

So I’ve asked how much to provide those bits, to enable modification of the M4 running gear...

Had a chat with Dave this morning... what a great chap! Very helpful and so after discussion I’ve ordered the steel gearboxes out of a Stug to address the height issue of the standard M4 boxes.

As you say, no one is going to get a protractor out and start measuring angles and dimensions. What I a, trying to do is create an acceptable facsimile with what’s available without going to exhortitant expense...

If that was the case it would be simple to order a full metal rtr for 3 times what I’m prepared to spend on this project... and of course that wouldn’t be much fun...

[Model Builder 4]

Hi Andy,

There is also a conversion kit for the M3 bogies top rollers on shapeways, I have used the vandra and shapeways set's and IMHO the shapeways seem a little more robust, just thought I'd throw another spanner your way

https://www.shapeways.com/product/9WWRD ... arketplace

Cheers,Lee.

[SimonCornes]

Thanks all for the useful info..

It looks like this is not going to be the build I wasn’t expecting in that I was thinking it was going to be a challenge in the technicalities of getting the thing to work but it seems like there’s bag of spanner’s to be had just putting the thing together as well.

So let’s cut to the chase, the turret being too small is going to bug the hell out of me so it will need to be fixed somehow. Sounds like I need to source an alternative turret/turret ring for a start

fixing the door is doable...

I was aware of the M3 suspension difference and that is definitely on my to do list. I’ve messaged Vandra as their RAM II kit has the bits to do that very conversion but isn’t in the M3 kit...

So I’ve asked how much to provide those bits, to enable modification of the M4 running gear...

Had a chat with Dave this morning... what a great chap! Very helpful and so after discussion I’ve ordered the steel gearboxes out of a Stug to address the height issue of the standard M4 boxes.

As you say, no one is going to get a protractor out and start measuring angles and dimensions. What I a, trying to do is create an acceptable facsimile with what’s available without going to exhortitant expense...

If that was the case it would be simple to order a full metal rtr for 3 times what I’m prepared to spend on this project... and of course that wouldn’t be much fun...

There is already a build article on this site correcting the Lee turret. You'll have to check your tank because the early Lees had a little extension at the top - a sort of step - so that the commanders cupola could fit one and and clear the 37mm breach so have a dig around for that. The good thing is that its got to be larger in diameter anyway so you could almost do with finding the rotational centre and then slathering it with something like P38 and then setting the turret spinning so that you can sand it off as it rotates! I bet its not dead circular in reality!! The 37mm and its mount into the face of there turret should be okay and the pistol ports should do as well and then you need the commanders cupola with 30 calibre as has been mentioned further up the thread. Don't forget that these turrets were cast armoured steel and the surface was pretty rough so as long as its about the right shape it doesn't have to be super smooth. I wasnt aware that Shapeways could help with the return rollers and I'm not sure how that works - do you just order 6 units? And the road wheels, a dozen replacement 3D printed road wheels would be useful! I must see what Shapeways do!!

Yep, £40 odd seems to sort you out with early road wheels and then another £40 something for early VVSS units and another £6 odd for a 75mm gun and about the same for a commanders cupola for a Lee! So about £100. That is vaguely annoying after shelling out for the conversion! I may try doing it all in 2 part resin!

[Model Builder 4]

This is the vandra set, they are made from resin, you need to be careful when cleaning them up as I have heard of others having problems with them breaking while doing this but thankfully mine turned out ok, they are now fitted to my early desert Sherman. The shapeways set I have are also going to be fitted to my own upcoming M3 build

Cheers,Lee.

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