RC Tank Warfare community hobby forum

We often hear about the exploits of Tpr. Joe Ekins KOing three of Wittmann's Tiger 1s in a row. Until today, however, I'd not been acquainted with the derring-do of Sgt Harris, and his gunner, Trooper McKillop, of the 4/7th Royal Dragoon Guards, when KOing FIVE Panthers with only five shots from their Firefly. This was in June 1944, around the village of Lingèvres, in Normandy.
The short video about the encounter is certainly well presented, and worth a look.

very informative short video, I will have to model my Sherman tank on his. Typical scot though ,not spending all his ammo on anybody.

Captain Hilts wrote:very informative short video, I will have to model my Sherman tank on his. Typical scot though ,not spending all his ammo on anybody.

..A sort of ballistic skinflint, with a kist full of shells he'd rather not part with? Tight, or not, Harris and McKillop were pretty cool customers.

Very interesting.
I'm going to have to do a bit more research in to this story.

43rdRecceReg wrote:

Captain Hilts wrote:very informative short video, I will have to model my Sherman tank on his. Typical scot though ,not spending all his ammo on anybody.

..A sort of ballistic skinflint, with a kist full of shells he'd rather not part with? Tight, or not, Harris and McKillop were pretty cool customers.

Yes I agree, nerves of steel, apparently Harris never shouted the order fire to McKillop, instead he would shout , ( Make it count son , Do you know how much these shells cost).

Thanks for posting this. I would add a wise crack or two, but you Scots already covered them all! Now if that were US Army, it would take five Shermans, all the ammunition, a case of beer, steaks, and young ladies just to get them to the Panthers. But the job would get done, with war babies along the way. As Churchill said, "They're overpaid, overfed, oversexed, and over here!"

Thanks, Prof., et al!
There's another (modest, as is to be expected) reference to the encounter here:
http://www.rdgmuseum.org.uk/history-and ... dium-tank/

That's not a Firefly, but it's a good picture of a contented crew. It's sad to think that they're all likely to be gone now...

I read recently, that with APDS rounds, the 17-Pounder was even more deadly; and that it possessed an even greater penetration potential than the vaunted 88mm Tiger 1 gun.

Herr Dr. Professor wrote:Thanks for posting this. I would add a wise crack or two, but you Scots already covered them all! Now if that were US Army, it would take five Shermans, all the ammunition, a case of beer, steaks, and young ladies just to get them to the Panthers. But the job would get done, with war babies along the way. As Churchill said, "They're overpaid, overfed, oversexed, and over here!"

Why do you think we drink so much and are so miserable here . I wish I was more like you's guys , but every time I ask for more money or bigger steaks or more sex from the lovely ladies , Black clouds appear ,it rains hard, my wife phones , and I have nightmares of my mother in law trying to kill me. I'm sure she is in touch with the devil .

Captain Hilts wrote:

Herr Dr. Professor wrote:Thanks for posting this. I would add a wise crack or two, but you Scots already covered them all! Now if that were US Army, it would take five Shermans, all the ammunition, a case of beer, steaks, and young ladies just to get them to the Panthers. But the job would get done, with war babies along the way. As Churchill said, "They're overpaid, overfed, oversexed, and over here!"

Why do you think we drink so much and are so miserable here . I wish I was more like you's guys , but every time I ask for more money or bigger steaks or more sex from the lovely ladies , Black clouds appear ,it rains hard, my wife phones , and I have nightmares of my mother in law trying to kill me. I'm sure she is in touch with the devil .

Well, if your Mother-in-Law looked anything like the one Reggie Perrin used to see, every time her name came up- namely:


..then, I can imagine why your daydreams were so easily crushed. Mine could do toast... simply by breathing on it

43rdRecceReg wrote:I read recently, that with APDS rounds, the 17-Pounder was even more deadly; and that it possessed an even greater penetration potential than the vaunted 88mm Tiger 1 gun.

Stolen and extrapolated from the Wiki's

88 X 571R MM from 8.8cm KWK 36 L56 (4.92m barrel/56 Calibres)
Range/Penetration on 30d slope/Penetration Percentage
APCBC (Armour-piercing, capped, ballistic cap) 773m/s muzzle velocity

• 100m / 132mm pen / 100%
• 500m / 110mm pen / 100%
• 1000m / 99mm pen / 100%
• 2000m / 83mm pen / 87%

APCR (Armour-piercing, composite rigid) Aka Tungsten Core, 930m/s muzzle velocity

• 100m / 171mm pen /100%
• 500m / 156mm pen / 100%
• 1000m / 138mm pen / 99%
• 2000m / 110mm pen / 71%

76.2 X 583R MM from Ord QF 17 pdr (4.19m barrel/55 calibres)
Range/Penetration on flat with 50% Penetration Percentage
APCBC (Armour-piercing, capped, ballistic cap) 884m/s muzzle velocity

• 100m / 174mm pen
• 500m / 163mm pen
• 1000m / 150mm pen
• 2000m / 126mm pen

APDS (Armour-piercing, discarding sabot) 1204m/s muzzle velocity

• 100m / 275mm pen
• 500m / 256mm pen
• 1000m / 233mm pen
• 2000m / 194mm pen

Note the difference in how the Germans vs the British/USA list penetration figures. Actual percentage penetrations on sloped armour vs 50% on vertical surfaces.

If you want to see Sherman 75-76mm effectiveness look at Page 22 of https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1045347.pdf
Panthers were nearly invulnerable from the front