SAUNDERS D DAY INVADER ...M4a3 SHERMAN

[PainlessWolf]

Mike, Alpha,
I really do think that these 'flaps' were on the Gun Shield to protect the portion of the barrel that recoils into the turret\gun mount. The only reason I can see for them not continuing on the top and bottom were because of the large screws already there to hold the gun components together. On the 105, something I have had occassion of late to look at closely, *chuckles* the gun shield protects all of that portion of the barrel with a thick flange. The gun mount screws are still there top and bottom but recessed into the thick gun shield. The T80 mount is completely different, lacking any exposed recoil portion of the barrel or screws, etc. I hope that this is helpful.
warm regards,
Painless

[ALPHA]

Greetings Gentlemen ....Thank you all for contributing to the education (maybe delinquency ) of this would be SHERMAN builder
Mike... your insight is unmeasurable... your library ...as well as knowledge is always a welcoming beacon ...though now I have to re adjust my vocabulary when it comes to the gun mount on the SHERMAN ..........
Painless.... there is reason to believe your logic to the "flaps" is correct...but on the flip side of logic.... don't you think the "flaps" are a tad too thin to offer any real protection? I think the armor plate on a STUART was thicker... and that was known not to be able to stop bullets ...fragments entering or damaging the recoil mech could be catastrophic...
With that said... let's take a pictorial overview

early version ... showing only the main gun shield (formerly rotor shield)...(which I will have to redo because I just noticed a mistake I made )

following version... main gun shield exposed... rotor cover small offering no protection at all

another version... small rotor shield ... but has the "flaps" ... still not much protection

The "rotor shield" (formerly known as the mantlet ) currently in question

same rotor cover.. no screws...no flaps.... no nuthin

turret ...that currently sits on both TAMIYA and HENG LONG's M4a3 SHERMAN...no flaps... screws back in ...larger gun...
also shows the great job Painless did on his build

rotor cover from the SHERMAN currently produced by MATO ... no flaps ... no screws...square...cake pan like

Now I'm not sure what to conclude from this gathering of information... but dang! Have I got a mean headache right now

ALPHA

ps. The mk Ic FIREFLY.... same rotor cover as I'm using...


no flaps

[HERMAN BIX]

Cheers Mr Alpha. Nice to meet you too. These appendages couold be as puzzling at the fittings found on the Panther at the Portolo Museum in San Fran. Except these things number in the thousands (those gadgets are like a relative you have in Jail- you know they are there but no one likes to talk about them )
Of all the things that could go unexplained on perhaps the most well know AFV next to the T34/76 & Tiger 1 its the 'Mantlet Flaps on the Humble Sherman'
Surely somewhere out there in the Arsenal of Democracy is a surviving female production line worker with a connection to the design reason or at least to the designER that might clarify these side flaps. ??
Casting these would have been a real pain in the ass, thin, long, and very likely at the top of the casting mould box.
OR, they were exactly that................the entry path to the mould for the moulten material to enter the preformed cavity ??
Most of which would have been machined out to accept the gun penetration - leaving the side flaps that also doubled as guards against recoil path ingress for spall or debris......................oh no, I'm getting the formation of the universe and creation of space headache again !!............

[cannedheat]

am lost hear no pics ?

[ALPHA]

Cheers Mr Alpha. Nice to meet you too. These appendages couold be as puzzling at the fittings found on the Panther at the Portolo Museum in San Fran. Except these things number in the thousands (those gadgets are like a relative you have in Jail- you know they are there but no one likes to talk about them )
Of all the things that could go unexplained on perhaps the most well know AFV next to the T34/76 & Tiger 1 its the 'Mantlet Flaps on the Humble Sherman'
Surely somewhere out there in the Arsenal of Democracy is a surviving female production line worker with a connection to the design reason or at least to the designER that might clarify these side flaps. ??
Casting these would have been a real pain in the ass, thin, long, and very likely at the top of the casting mould box.
OR, they were exactly that................the entry path to the mould for the moulten material to enter the preformed cavity ??
Most of which would have been machined out to accept the gun penetration - leaving the side flaps that also doubled as guards against recoil path ingress for spall or debris......................oh no, I'm getting the formation of the universe and creation of space headache again !!............

Hey there Herman.... I think you might be closer than anyone...it very well could have been a feature added to aid the casting making that area a little stronger and have the look of something useful... like what Painless suggests..... I also have a thought about those appendages ....I think after awhile some may have actually cracked off..just from the vibration ...as the steel casting process back then ...though still very good...left a porous end product ... reason later they found there was no real benefit... and deleting them from the cast all together

Another reason I don't feel they were meant as a gunfire splash guard is... a welded not incorporated plate would have probably been much stronger

But as you say... without proper documentation... no one presently will know for sure...though it did make for some stimulating discussion

ALPHA

[ALPHA]

am lost hear no pics ?

NO FLAMER ... NO PICTURES .....Just kidding Canned ...not to worry sir... I have been able to hurdle another obstacle in the build.... the exhaust system..after 20 hrs of work....it is installed and pumping life giving mists ...yes ... now really the M4a2 has come to life

No pictures because the weather has been anything but poor here...so as soon as it clears I will have some for you... I like to do them outdoors... for some reason my camera does as well...I think it's auto detect isn't really meant for indoor lighting unless it's from a distance....
So hang on there my friend...images are on their way

ALPHA

[HERMAN BIX]

Well Mr Alpha, one thing is for sure, the next weeks lotto draw is safe, ffor you and I have no clairvoyant ability to solve even this well explored 70 year old conundrum.!!
I cant go with casting sprue being left on throughout post cast processing to maybe break off, but I agree that for realistic prevention of impact spall or projectile splach protection they are to thin.
welding these on would have its own inherent difficulties that I cannot see would have been tested enough or cost/time effective enough to be a real mass production consideration. Plus with the volume of vehicles manufactured and the 70 years plus of photographic records of these both in action and detroyed on the field, I dont recall one Sherman with only 1 flap left on the mantlet.
I feel the mystery will see out another 70 years.................

[ALPHA]

Well Mr Alpha, one thing is for sure, the next weeks lotto draw is safe, ffor you and I have no clairvoyant ability to solve even this well explored 70 year old conundrum.!!
I cant go with casting sprue being left on throughout post cast processing to maybe break off, but I agree that for realistic prevention of impact spall or projectile splach protection they are to thin.
welding these on would have its own inherent difficulties that I cannot see would have been tested enough or cost/time effective enough to be a real mass production consideration. Plus with the volume of vehicles manufactured and the 70 years plus of photographic records of these both in action and detroyed on the field, I dont recall one Sherman with only 1 flap left on the mantlet.
I feel the mystery will see out another 70 years.................

I agree in totality Herman...though pictured many times over.. as you say... none are really blown off... and you never see a crewmember standing or sitting on those flaps... so yes ... who really knows what the true purpose is

The rotor shield definitely looks better with them though

ALPHA

[ALPHA]

Pictures? someone wanted to see some pictures ...Well OK.... just so happens today ..or this morning .... has a break in the weather... so I thought I'd take the opportunity to take some pictures of my what looks to be refugee from a scrap yard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPk21C0Wpkg
First a general overview of where I am now




as you can see a lot of modifications inside the turret ...the good thing about it is... I can put a longer torso figure in the hatch...the bad thing... it was a pain in the tuchus and three days to figure everything out




The new exhaust system allowed for better hookup of the smoke tubes and the fittings on top of the smoker unit left loose so fluid can easily be added the copper exhaust took 13 hrs to create... and will also function as an antenna




Cleaned up and added the details to the three piece transmission cover....the casting was not as clean as the KV2 turret... so hopefully... paint will cover many of it's flaws
the three bolts on the center plate weren't really needed... but I had sanded the originals off... so figured putting them back wouldn't be a bad thing
The lights are metalized ... to seal out any light leak...beams only can be seen from directly in front .. and on the brake lights... only from the rear ... the tail lights like the KV are hooked to the firing system... so activate when shooting...don't ask why... I just like them like that now



the revised location of the rotor shield "flaps"




a crow's eye view of my junkyard dog ...she's not the looker.. but at least ... for the moment she runs and does everything she should do

ALPHA

[PainlessWolf]

Good Afternoon, Alpha,
This tank is very pleasing to the eye. All of the elements that you have put together, work together. I can't wait to see it in paint with all of the little details like tools and light guards added. Will you be building those in copper or using a Tamiya sprue? You have done some incredibly nice modeling here, my friend.
warm regards,
Painless