RC Tank Warfare community hobby forum

Well, after a tiny bit of weathering, the Airsoft/IT turret is complete.
Here i's sitting atop Dean's amazing resin M4A4 Firefly upper hull. Ultimately, though, I'm aiming to make an M4 (welded hull) 1c conversion. The M4 was shorter than the M4A4, (standard length in fact?) and this will save me having to saw the hull/chassis in order to lengthen it. That always reminds me of the old magic trick where a woman is sawn in half...
We don't want any plastic gore on the floor.


the problem then, is the the M4 engine deck is quite different from the engine deck on Dean's hull and, of course, the real thing.
Here's the M4A4 engine deck:

...and, here's the typical M4 engine deck layout:

The M4 also has an almost vertical rear plate, compared with the sloped one found on the M4A4

So, it looks like some serious plastic surgery is needed on a spare, and dispensable M4A3 upper hull ( in the event of hair-tearing calamity). It might be fun trying to create those small hatches and surrounds out of styrene. Then again, it might be styrene hell.
Anyway, that's it for the moment. I think I shall try my hand at painting some tank commanders. Hopefully without grotesque results. I've even bought a Captain Nigel Mansell
commander from Forgebear for the Comet project.

Well...the turret looks a trifle lonely on its own. Time, then, to marry it up to an M4 1c upper hull. Problem is, I only have the M4A3 hull, and that's wrong in three key areas: 1. wrong glacis angle (should be around 57deg, not 47deg); wrong engine deck; and the rear panel should not be so sloped.
Time, methinks, for a spot of major plastic surgery, then.
I'm using a 1/48 Tamiya Firefly M4 1c as my studio model.
I made a template from it, for taking a wedge out of the glacis.

For comparison purposes, here's the M4A3 upper hull glacis compared with Dean's M4A4 hull (the M4A4 had the same glacis angle as the M4 1c- welded- Firefly):

If you're wondering why I'm not using the resin hull, well, it's because it has the M4A4 Vc engine deck- and that's totally wrong for an M4 1c. (See some of the deck pics posted earlier)..
Using the template to cut a slice out of the hull's side:

Now, with the glacis plate bonded back in place. Here's a curious thing, the material HL used on this Sherman isn't Styrene- nor does it appear to be ABS. In fact, when sawn or sanded, it breaks down into green fibres. Does it matter? Yes, because ordinary styrene cement won't work, and ABS glue has problems as well. So....I've begun to use two-part epoxy for all the joints, just to err on the side of caution.
My plan is the sand the front upper hull flat, removing the moulded-on bulges that represent the hatches, etc. For that to work, I had to fill the interior 'cavities' created by the moulding process, to give some support to the deck when it's Dremelled away.
here's where trusty olf Milliput comes in handy:

If you're wondering why I've left the mounting studs in place, it's because I need them to check the correct alignment of the upper hull/deck and the plastic chassis/hull. I might cut 'em out later.
While that's all setting, I'm going to get to work excising the engine deck.
This is how the engine deck's configured on the Tamiya Firefly:


You can see, at a glance, that the M4 engine deck (A Woz special- from Shape doodahs) needs spme 8mm sawn off the front, so that the bullet splash shield for the large air intake marries up with the shield on the turret- as per Tamiya arrangement. The section to be cut is shown by the parallel lines. The arrowed fuel/oil caps also should be almost in line
I've also decided to leave one of the rotation unit mountings in place, on a little plastic promontory. That way, I shall have a pair to being with. The third will be removed from the old deck, and bonded to the new one.

And testing the fit of the unit:

Now some support plates to bond, and locate, the new deck in place. Four will be needed. This is the first:

Here's the shortened engine deck bonded to the internal supports. Lots of filling to do later, and lots more to saw and grind off. Gives the daily grind (without the 'bump') a new meaning.

The rear armour plate will also have to be cut into the typical 'horseshoe' pattern seen on the M4's (1c, 1c hybrid and other flavours of M4). In addition, and if I can be ar**d, I shall have to remove some of the slope on the rear panel. It should look almost vertical.

These are the plans I'm also using reference:

Thank you for the great build and photos, 43rd, I am having a bit of trouble: now is this the RC model or the real one? Wow! And the tool discussion and photos gave me two tips for my first trip to a hobby store after I get my second arm-piercing hit. I wonder if those postings should be copied to the Masterclass pages.

As to "I'm not even a fan of the Sherman".... Ha! It's little yellow BBs at twenty feet! The loser has to buy the pizza and Hefe Weißbier. My T-34 once whomped a Tiger I with BBs to the hull...before I nearly drove the T-34 down a stairs, that it.

I do have a number of Sherman books here. Did you get the first volume of Son of Sherman some years back? It's among the best sources, and I believe it is from that book, isolated 'Murrican that I am, that I learned about the Firefly.

Herr Dr. Professor wrote:Thank you for the great build and photos, 43rd, I am having a bit of trouble: now is this the RC model or the real one? Wow! And the tool discussion and photos gave me two tips for my first trip to a hobby store after I get my second arm-piercing hit. I wonder if those postings should be copied to the Masterclass pages.

As to "I'm not even a fan of the Sherman".... Ha! It's little yellow BBs at twenty feet! The loser has to buy the pizza and Hefe Weißbier. My T-34 once whomped a Tiger I with BBs to the hull...before I nearly drove the T-34 down a stairs, that it.

I do have a number of Sherman books here. Did you get the first volume of Son of Sherman some years back? It's among the best sources, and I believe it is from that book, isolated 'Murrican that I am, that I learned about the Firefly.

I'll happily accept the slurp of beer, Prof., and thanks for the confidence booster. I'll win the BB's at 20 paces duel, I think, since the yellow variety can't be relied upon, and are apt to jam the gun.
I've now moved on to trustworthy 20gm competition black BBs Yay, now how's that for BB-oneupmanship Pizza must be genuine Italian (thin crust), preferably with wild mushrooms, garlic, tomatoes, fresh mozzarella, herbs and no meat.

The Sherman just looks too bulbous to me ('or Fast and bulbous'.... as Captain Beefheart once sang). It was also nicknamed 'the Skyscraper' for good reason: its high profile in the landscape, was a genuine boon for 88mm gunners. Curiously, one of the main objections to the production of the 17-Pounder Challenger Mk 1(A30) en masse, was its height. Yet- as this illustration shows, it was not as tall as the stratospheric Sherman. Und so ist das Leben.

Coming along nicely! Hope at some point you get to use that A4 deck!

dgsselkirk wrote:Coming along nicely! Hope at some point you get to use that A4 deck!

Many thanks, Dean! The prized resin deck and turret are destined to remain in A4 format, for a later project. This is just an experiment to see what challenges (and screams of frustration ) emerge from converting a bog-standard M4A3 into an M4 1c Firefly.
A key driver behind opting for the M4 1c (welded) variant, was that- according to Tamiya, at least- they were produced in considerable numbers, after the initial run of M4A4's built for Normandy. Another big plus point for the build:the M4 doesn't need the elongated hull of the M4A4 Vc.
But if I was hoping to save some work there, it's piling up with mods to the turret and upper hull.

It's a pity that the Tamiya M4 (105mm) upper hull is impossible to obtain as that, at least, already has the correct 'horseshoe' rear plate and M4 engine deck (which was also fitted to the 1c Hybrid). So....it's a long slog. Woz also does some small hatch units, and I might well order those to finish the front off. At the moment, I'm going to scratch build the front.
This is what Tamiya says about the M4:

It's not an 'expert' opinion, ah, but it's good enough for me.
Here's an interesting snippet I found buried in the 'Shadock site'. It suggests that British conversion firms were happy to receive later turrets with loader's hatches already in place (i.e the 'High' bustle type), as it saved them a lot of time. Also, no precise figures exist for the ratio of conversion- i.e; 1c (welded); 1c (hybrid) and Vc. Just a thought. Thus precedents for M4 high- bustle 1c's exists. Not that it really matters, anyway. It's just a model.

".....Despite the cast front end, this was obviously not an issue with the Composites, and one of the converting firms mentioned that those with the D78461 turrets saved them a lot of time and effort since they already had loader's hatches. The photo above shows such a turret on a Sherman Ic Hybrid of the Sherwood Rangers, 8th Armoured Brigade photographed in Geldern, Germany, 6 March, 1945. Courtesy of the IWM, Photo B 15230..."

This pic


changed source as link was broken

Yes, one like that, John. However, it'll be a while before I can pack mine like that. Although the kitchen sink is unlikely, you can bet they packed a kettle for a tea brew up. The sort of 'brew-up' that was actually welcome in a Sherman, so to speak.
Here's another M4- this one with the high bustle turret. (Pic and comment from Shadock.com.)

Doubtless, quite a few were supplied like this for conversion. For me, though, it's the details in the pic of the engine deck, and the horseshoe shape that I need for this build.

edit- I notice in your pic that the rearmost vents are facing backwards, rather than forwards (the norm?)- as in the pic above.

"The sort of 'brew-up' that was actually welcome in a Sherman." Good shot!
"Pizza must be genuine Italian (thin crust), preferably with wild mushrooms, garlic...fresh mozzarella, herbs and no meat." We certainly agree on the pizza. I will look up "20gm competition black BBs." However, my dog likes eating the yellow ones, and I have so many left I likely will never use them up (not to mention model kits).

Herr Dr. Professor wrote:"The sort of 'brew-up' that was actually welcome in a Sherman." Good shot!
"Pizza must be genuine Italian (thin crust), preferably with wild mushrooms, garlic...fresh mozzarella, herbs and no meat." We certainly agree on the pizza. I will look up "20gm competition black BBs." However, my dog likes eating the yellow ones, and I have so many left I likely will never use them up (not to mention model kits).

There are a number of threads here that cover the unreliability of the high-visibility yellow BBs. The only advantage they have over other types, is that they're easy to locate in doggie doodahs the following morning
Luckily for me, my Westies won't eat anything that they shouldn't. Then again, they'll only eat the best (human) grade chicken breast with their kibble, whilst I'm reduced to chicken nuggets with my snack meals...