RC Tank Warfare community hobby forum

All very enlightening. I've a lot to learn about plastics, it seems. I thought that ABS and Styrene were pretty much the same, and that model Tank bodies were- like car bumpers and trim, Lego bits, computer keys etc- made of Styrene/ABS. Not so apparently. They're made out of ABS; a type of styrene, but with extras (Acrylonitrile and Butadiene.) making it a much harder thermoplastic than (Poly)Styrene. I found that Tamiya actually make
a modelling cement specifically for ABS, that will bond ABS to ABS and ABS, and ABS to styrene. It won't bond to resin, and it's very hard to come by, though I've seen it listed on Ebay. Maybe because of those ardent young sniffers out there..
Resin to resin still requires superglue, with preparatory abrasion and perhaps reinforcing pins/pegs. Another way to bond styrenes of disparate strengths- like ABS to styrene- is to use a cement that melts and bonds them both equally, thus overcoming the problem of shear, like the Tamiya product. Or, you can, as this guy suggests use acetone and ABS glue together but that's how you get to be a modelling Frankenstein :

I use this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Plastruct-EMA ... SwygJXgqpM

The spec says
'Plastruct EMA 57ml Plastic Weld - PPC2

Plastic Weld Cement sticks all normal model making plastics, i.e. perspex, ABS, butyrate, styrene, acrylic etc. It has a long shelf life, is fast acting (grabs in seconds), and has a water-like consistency so it is best used by holding or clamping the surfaces together and running a loaded brush or applicator along the length of the joint (solvent will be drawn into the joint by capillary action).

A second application can be made if required, but is not normally necessary. When joining dissimilar plastics, i.e. styrene to butyrate, the hardest material (in this case butyrate) should have the joint surface softened, by giving a light coat of solvent, prior to holding the surfaces together. Then proceed as normal. Plastic weld cement should be used in a well ventilated area and contact with skin or eyes should be avoided. '

It does not include resin though and I wouldn't expect it to as resin is intended for use with glass fibre and is by it's nature very hard when the chemical reaction completes. I suspect you would be limited to using superglue or epoxy.
Alwyn

Man - it takes several varieties of glue to make these things stay in one place. I just ordered the glue mentioned Mr. AlwynTurner as some pieces need something more than my oxy-acetylene setup can produce!

Be well,
Steve

[quote="43rdRecceReg"] " I've a lot to learn about plastics, it seems. I thought that ABS and Styrene were pretty much the same, and that model Tank bodies were- like car bumpers and trim, Lego bits, computer keys etc- made of Styrene/ABS. Not so apparently. They're made out of ABS; a type of styrene, but with extras (Acrylonitrile and Butadiene.) making it a much harder thermoplastic than (Poly)Styrene." .

I first discovered that Heng Long and Taigen had changed from "Plastic" to "ABS" when the "ZAP7" debonder that neutralised the glue holding them together no longer did so and I had to start trialling other debonders.
Shaun.

So Shaun, what did you find that neutralized the glue today on these guys?

Be well,
Steve

Steve Hi,
I am sorry to say the results are disappointing,
With "ZAP7" after the glue had dissolved you merely washed the debonder off with water and all was well BUT just about everything I have tried since, if it separates the bound item it also damages to a greater or lesser degree the Glued item,
It would appear that alternatives act as a solvent rather than a chemical agent that breaks down the glue as in the case of "ZAP7",
So instead of bathing the glued area as in the case of "ZAP7" it needs to be a little on the glue and just keep working the glued item trying to separate it from the glue.
A most unsatisfactory method that can end in disaster.
I have always favoured engineering solutions to my builds which is why I use a Pin Vise and small scale Nuts, Bolts, and Washers to hold things together and if that is a no go then I try to use a butane torch and Liquid solder which I paint over the join before applying heat,
Both the Nuts and Bolts and the Soldering methods allow for disassembly with greater ease than trying to separate glued items But ABS is not perhaps the best medium for soldering
The search continues.
Shaun.

Just exactly what are we trying to glue? If we're gluing together panels for an upper Hull that's one thing, but if you're just attaching resin stowage to an ABS body I usually use zap goo. It sticks really well and the pieces won't come off and I have yet to find anything that it won't stick to. But, it's not a permanent adhesive. With steady gentle pressure the pieces can be removed because the Goo is more like a gum than a glue. But, for attaching stowage I have yet to find anything better.

Max-U52 wrote:Just exactly what are we trying to glue? If we're gluing together panels for an upper Hull that's one thing, but if you're just attaching resin stowage to an ABS body I usually use zap goo. It sticks really well and the pieces won't come off and I have yet to find anything that it won't stick to. But, it's not a permanent adhesive. With steady gentle pressure the pieces can be removed because the Goo is more like a gum than a glue. But, for attaching stowage I have yet to find anything better.

Not something I have ever heard of but it looks really good. And it's available in the UK. So often this is not the case. The Loctite variants sold in the US are not the same as those sold in the UK.

I use Goo for all kinds of stuff and really like it. It's great for running wiring because it will hold everything right where I want it, but if I have to remove things i can. But like I said, it's not really a glue so it never gets truly hard and can be removed with slow steady pressure, but I've used it for stowage on some tanks that have really taken a beating and none of the pieces have fallen off. And remember it needs about 15 minutes to set up, and then a good 24 hours for full cure.

And it's really good for tow cables, too.

jarndice wrote:

43rdRecceReg wrote: " I've a lot to learn about plastics, it seems. I thought that ABS and Styrene were pretty much the same, and that model Tank bodies were- like car bumpers and trim, Lego bits, computer keys etc- made of Styrene/ABS. Not so apparently. They're made out of ABS; a type of styrene, but with extras (Acrylonitrile and Butadiene.) making it a much harder thermoplastic than (Poly)Styrene." .

I first discovered that Heng Long and Taigen had changed from "Plastic" to "ABS" when the "ZAP7" debonder that neutralised the glue holding them together no longer did so and I had to start trialling other debonders.
Shaun.

Quite a few tank projects have clanked under the bridge since this discussion. Newly inducted into the Tamiya world of extravagant spending, I discovered= but old hands already know -
that they actually mark their sprues 'PE' for styrene parts, and 'ABS" for a few tougher bits (turret ring for example). That way you know immediately, without hours rummaging online, which adhesive to use for which part: Tamiya Cement or equivalent (I use Revell contact Pro) for Polystyrene parts - and as much as 90% of the typical kit is PE. Then
I use Tamiya ABS cement or Plastic Weld for the few toughened components included. Plastic Weld is powerful enough to melt your nostrils (then the brain..), and so a suitable respirator is required.
Broadly then, there's no need for Epoxies or Superglues; just a few dabs of threadlock (milder superglue) here and there.
The picture with Taigen and Heng long offerings is quite different. I might be wrong, but there's no indication anywhere on a typical model, nor in the gobbledegook accompanying user guide
of what type of plastic is used, and whereabouts. So, it's always a bit hit and miss finding which bonding agent works best. I even looked at the possibility of plastic tack welding with a soldering iron..
It could work,,but not on 1/16 models, I think.
Scratch building is where glue knowhow (and not from teenage sniffing experience ) comes in handy. Bonding resin to ABS or PE can be a nightmare, I tried all sorts of superglues (Loctite onwards) and found that 'Super Glue Plastic Fusion" worked best for me, after parts had been seriously abraded beforehand. Adding dowels and pins to the mix could only strengthen the bond!
I found this test quite interesting when it came to torsional stress resistance. If you can get over the presenter's strangulated cartoon voice (American dad..maybe?(, the test is quite exhaustive.
Or exhausting, if the voice grates on you I don't know whether he's in the pay of any of the manufacturers here, but the test seems to be unbiased.