Tamiya Super Sherman

[BigPanzer]

Hi Folks,

Some gossip from across the pond - Tamiya have been well and truly caught with their pants round their ankles with this offering. Apparently their bean counters have been sticking their unwanted noses into it and this has resulted in the model being deeply flawed regarding its accuracy and there are also complaints about the name Super Sherman.
According to Google they have actually had to issue a public apology for the errors on the kit, which they put down to "marketing influences"

It made very pleasant reading to see them lose face to such an extent. Hopefully they are stabbing themselves in the head with their chopsticks and are doing something to limit the damage done to their reputation.

If you Google "Tamiya Super Sherman" you should find the details.

Peter

[sparks]

Serves them right for doing a revamp of the existing kit
Shoulkd have done something new, a Sherman with VVSS would have been nice.

[Pcomm1]

Below are a couple of emails from Tamiya Japan Corporate in response to previous emails from Bill and myself. We calmly, historically and factually explained why the M-51 Super Sherman is a pretty disappointing kit and perhaps a kit no one wants.

The retooled Sherman 105mm kit turned into to a IDF slugger, is no doubt, a clear market miss for the experienced Tamiya rc tank modeler and I think Tamiya seems to agree, at least in these two emails.

On Nov 15, 2010, at 1:27 AM, WINDOW@tamiya-inc.co.jp wrote:

Dear John,

Thank you very much for your message.

As mentioned to Mr. Campbell, it is obvious that there is a core group of
dedicated customers who purchase these R/C tank models, and your kind
support over the years is a prime example of this.

There are marketing goofs in any company and in any culture,
but we hope that market response such as yours and Mr. Campbell's will
teach them a valuable lesson.

Considering the breadth of Tamiya's product range, it would be impossible
to focus on R/C tanks alone, but rest assured that we will continue to
expand our line-up, and the next one will certainly reflect the lessons
learned with the M-51.

Once again, thank you for sharing your comments with us (they have been
translated and forwarded to management) and we greatly appreciate your
concern and support.

Best regards,

International Division Staff
Tamiya, Inc.



On Nov 12, 2010, at 3:34 AM, WINDOW@tamiya-inc.co.jp wrote:

Dear Bill,

Thank you very much for your message. It is always a pleasure to hear from
modellers around the world.

It is indeed a shame, there is no doubt about it. There were a number of
different reasons behind the decision to produce the 1/16 R/C M-51 in that
state and as you have already deduced, they were all marketing related.

I want to make it clear that the product designers and the translators fought
against these decisions, but in the end we were overruled.

Firstly, the name. We are fully aware that only the M-1 was given the
moniker Super Sherman and that the IDF never gave this label to the M-50 or
M-51.

However, the Japanese people love monikers, especially those with
easy to pronounce English adjectives. Considering how important the
domestic market is to Tamiya, Super Sherman was therefore used as part of
the product name for packaging and marketing purposes.

Us translators asked for a compromise solution where Super Sherman would be deleted from
the English name since it was not accurate. This was rejected on the
grounds that M-51 by itself was not a very good product logo. Thuse all we
could do was place quotation marks around Super Sherman to try and indicate
that it was not an official name.

Secondly, the appearance/feature inaccuracies. Again, purely a marketing
decision. As you have already deduced, the sales people wanted a new 1/16
R/C tank to promote, and the fastest and most low-cost method was to take
the 105mm howitzer Sherman and give it a modified turret. Our product
designers always conduct thorough research on each subject and were
completely against this decision for the same reasons you mentioned. There
were so many differences in the turret, hull, and accessory mounting
details that the resulting model did not really match any M-51 that
existed. However, as you had perceived, the sales folks decided that the
"average Joe" would be taken by the decently impressive turret and gun
barrel. This may or may not be true, but these same sales folks
regrettably overlooked the fact that the customers who buy these
complicated, expensive models are not exactly the "average Joe" off the
street. Like yourself, these customers are probably long-time Tamiya
supporters with other tank models in their collection and will likely be
just as disappointed as you with the M-51.

I cannot stress enough that our product designers and translators had every
intention to produce a respectable product that is up to Tamiya standards.
Unfortunately, it had turned out to be far from the case. To be completely
honest, we are just as upset about this as you are. We wholeheartedly
agree with your sentiments and can only apologize for releasing such a
poorly executed product. There is no excuse for it, but what is done is
done.

Again, we greatly appreciate you taking the time to share your concerns
with us here in Japan. Hopefully the sales people will take critiques such
as yours to heart for the next product.

Sincerely,

International Division Staff
Tamiya, Inc.

[Woz]

Problem is if the do sell then the marketing people will have an even more powerful voice when it comes to future releases. I think there's enough modellers out there who'd buy it despite the faults.

[Pcomm1]

Perhaps not and why:

After almost 30 days on the market, the best of the USA RC tank vendors are reporting no interest in the Super Sherman kit.

Tight money means people, of course, are far more selective when it comes to nonessential purchases. The Super Sherman kit has the Hooben T-55A to compete with plus the re-release of the static Tamiya Leopard A4, which is easily converted to full option.

Also the long rumored Tamiya RC 1/16 Abrams is buzzing again and the Hooben Elefant is also rumored to happen in 2011.

All better choices than the warmed over Tamiya Super Sherman (X Sherman 105mm kit), so most modelers are waiting for better kit offerings.

All in all Tamiya marketing folk absolutely did not listen to their own marketing survey's taken over the last four years, so hopefully those "let's just retool old kit marketing types" will be gone and better, smarter people will replace them.

Anyway, one ugly old ETO Sherman is enough for my motor pool.

[Yellowshaker]

I have been in this hobby just over a year. I love it and cannot believe it took this long to find rc tanking. Now, the sherman is one of my favorite tanks and I wanted an Isralei model for a long time. I ended up making my own for a mato and modelled an M1 that I found online...with tamiya electronics. Now, a month later this M-51 arrives. For me it was a bit too late, as I have plenty of other tanks on the list to warrant buying this kit. At least the parts trees will be useful to me.

[Pcomm1]

Very nice work.

Here is Bill's (pattoncommander) Tamato IDF M-51 (Tamiya Mato hybrid).

I think yours and BIll's IDF Sherman examples, both, have greater attention to detail than Tamiya's new IDF Sherman kit.

Perhaps, for you, it turned out for the best, because the Tamiya kit looks like a 105 assault tank with the wrong turret on it.

Anyway, WWII ETO AFVs are my main interest areas and the ETO is the area I would most like to see Tamiya explore with new tank kit offerings.

John

[Andy in Cheltenham]

I would buy this kit if the money was available, I'm sorry, but atleast it is more than halfway correct. I have the old Leopard A4 kit and that is flawed aswell. I've corrected a lot of errors and converted it to an AS1, It is not finished yet as I've just started scratch building the engineering attachment on the Glacis plate.

here are a few errors that I can think of now.
The smoke launcher guards are incorrect
The mantlet is too far out from the turret.
There ar no weld lines around the turret.

The Israeli Sherman a good kit, just not the one you actually want.

[Pcomm1]

Andy in Cheltenham says, I'm sorry, but at least it is more than halfway correct.

And I am sorry, but this is why Andy is so very wrong:

That is just to politically correct a phrase brother: halfway correct.

What you are really saying to the modeling community is that the Tamiya Alleged IDF Sherman is just plan old WRONG if one translates your words into Queen's English.

Plus this alleged IDF Sherman wasn't good enough to get into your wallet, by your own admission, hence the kit is a failure for you too. You haven't rushed out to buy one or order it online.

But most importantly, the kit does not live up to Tamiya's high corporate modeling standards and is more like a half baked job from HL, but with an expensive price tag. That is the key issue and why it is a very disappointing kit.

The researched facts by pattoncommander:

The Super Sherman Tamiya has modeled was built from some Shermans used in Israel and a Super Sherman is just an M-4 series tank with the T-23 turret and 76mm gun, either using either VVSS or HVSS suspension, A1 through A4 series.

End of story, it would seem, but no.

It is/was regarded as the M-1 Super Sherman, and NO OTHER Sherman in the M-50 or M-51 classification, regardless of improved gun or firepower, was ever classified as Super Sherman in Israel. At least where it was built, used by and where it's awesome military history was earned.

As if the erroneous name isn't bad enough, Tamiya has combined an old and later version of the M-51 for the latest model.

Spare track blocks were carried on the hull sponsons on earlier models, but later models mounted them on the turret cheeks and added an additional stowage box on the sponsons.

Why does the Tamiya version have the spares in both locations and detailing such as horn guards not covered? The tracks on the sponsons are also in the wrong location. They should be even with the driver's hatch. A mere look at photos of various M-51s will confirm the inaccuracy of the model.

I have seen photos of the back and top of the Tamiya M-51. The gun travel lock is not only incorrect it is not there!

There should be a large travel lock, standing 4 feet high on the real tank, laying on the rear deck. The original 105mm travel lock mounting molds are still on the old 105 bow plate. Looks like Tamiya just hopped up the old Sherman 105 to save on tooling and generate some sales and could care less about being accurate.

Is this the reputation Tamiya now desires to project?

The turret, from what I can see on photos appears to be fairly accurate and the massive muzzle brake is impressive. This alone will might generate sales for just spare parts for the turret and gun (so all may not be lost).

What model is the new Tamiya supposed to represent?

The M-51 was officially entered into service in 1962 and most still had the radial engine. However the Cummins diesel engines became available in mid 1960 and by 1973, all M-51s were fitted with the new diesel. The rear deck was altered in 1975 from the added vents to the exhaust exiting top center, to the rear and being deflected to the side at the travel lock mounting bracket. The Tamiya M-51 has the radial engine deck, yet portions from mid and late models, so what is it attempting to emulate?

The Shermans used in Israel were very complex and fabricated using available parts from various models. The M-50 and M-51s also varied with slight differences seen in many tanks, but generally they were reconfigured on a basic design. It would have been better to name the tank Israeli M-51 Sherman, instead of using a name fabricated by someone outside Israel who was ignorant of the history behind the tank and IDF armor. Some of the M-51s were still being used in reserve units in 1991, however most had been retired by 1978 (so there is still very good reference available).

[971wright]

Hi Guys I have to say that Pcomm1 is correct in all areas ,Tamiya have shot themselves in the foot with this model ,they have been very slap dash ,they could have done a much better job if they had scaled up one of there 1/35 scale models put correct suspension and turret ,they would have sold tons if they had made a good model ,but they had to try and rehash a model that has made them a small fortune it has been around since the early seventys,if they had reinvested some of the profits into developing a different type of Sherman, with working VVss suspension new electrics with recoil it would have made it posible for modelers to make different models from the two kits,which would have increased there sales of both kits and sales of spares to upgrade models that are out there.

regards pete