Dare To Compare

[43rdRecceReg]

Now for some really ugly tanks

think the designer of this one was on crack ...aptly named the TV 8

The winner of the "Good but no Cigar" category The T6 prototype to the M4


This one is actually pretty cool...little larger Tankette ...the T7e2


ALPHA

That Chrysler TV-8 looks like space-age cookware, or a motorised RC hospital bedpan. It's described as a nuclear tank, though, which is even less probable than a radio controlled bedpan. As for the unanticipated pics of unknown
Fireflies..I'm actually quite impressed by the lengths forum members go to, to unearth the truth...and 'out' the Fireflies. The error I made describing the M4 as a fully cast model was just that: an error. I meant to write 'welded'. A couple of weeks ago, I was looking into options for donor Shermans on Ebay with a view to making a Firefly. I saw the Mato M4A1 upper hull there (no longer available from Mato )apparently, thinking that in part, at least, it might pass for the Hybrid/Composite version of the Firefly. That was not to be, as I was outbid by someone else..but by then I was convinced that no Fireflies were made from the M4A1 upper hull...not until my typo, and the subsequent..almost Penn and Teller-like appearance of the Canadian 'Grizzlies' (11 were made apparently, but they never saw action). Magic. Now we see ... hey Presto! an M4A3 Firefly being tested on a range...what's next? ..an M22 Firefly?

[ALPHA]

I have a related question about the Firefly; specifically the length of the M4A4 chassis. Alpha and I were talking about it, but couldn't come to an agreement on it. We can see from any photograph that there is more space between the 2nd & 3rd, and the 4th & 5th roadwheels than there is on an M4A3 (for example) Sherman. My belief is that the hull was lengthened somewhere in the middle, and that they centered the second bogie unit halfway between the first and third bogie units. Now, the question we have not been able to figure out is if there was any other lengthened part of the hull somewhere. Alpha thinks that the spacing between the drive sprocket and the first roadwheel, (shorter), and the spacing between the last roadwheel and the idler (longer) may be different for an M4A4 and a stock-length Sherman. It's really hard to tell from drawings and photos, but my belief is that the distances in these two areas were the same as a normal Sherman, so as not to change the angle of attack at the front or rear of the tank. Has anyone figured this out before? Thank you. -Mike

Not sure you noticed Mike...but I listened to every word you said...Just like Frankie ...both of your opinions are truly valued ....What made the issue confusing was the layout of the wheels on the 1/35th scale models.....where the gap is clearly present on the front bogie set to Sprocket...and the rear bogie set to the Idler..What was bad about looking at the model I had restored was...the guy who initially built it did a really lousy job....Building the Tasca kit you gave me would probably lend some light to it...but at the moment ...I have more time to just study photos than actually build even the hull of that model

The good thing is...Frankie confirms what you said...that they are the same...Photos like you say are really difficult...even the ones of the real deal...as you don't know if somewhere during the process of development the image was stretched in some way...the examples in the lead out post are difficult because the standard M4s...are drawn and presented in a slightly larger format than the Fireflies

I've come to the conclusion that when I do finally get around to doing my Firefly...I will take both yours and Frankie's advice....but take a little artistic license just to make it "look" right....especially because of the mod I do to my wheels

By the way...thanks for the info on the Griz...and you were right again...those Sprockets and tracks ARE really different


ALPHA

[sassgrunt]

Never a problem, General. I was interested in finding out for myself as well, (wanted to confirm if I got it wrong on mine or not). I like the fact that everyone is willing to share knowledge, thoughts, or just swags here. It's how we all make it better.

[ALPHA]

Never a problem, General. I was interested in finding out for myself as well, (wanted to confirm if I got it wrong on mine or not). I like the fact that everyone is willing to share knowledge, thoughts, or just swags here. It's how we all make it better.

Glad you understand ....Glad you also overlook the kind of dumbfounded look I have sometimes when listening ...It just means I'm soaking it in and it's going through processing ...Kind of


ALPHA

[ALPHA]

Firefly Dimensions (L/w/h) (19ft.4 in x 8ft.8in x 9 ft.0in)
M4 Dimensions (l/w/h) (19ft 2 in x 8ft 7in x 9ft).0in)

LOTS OF RESEARCH THERE Jamie

Thanks for sharing all of it


ALPHA

[ALPHA]

That Chrysler TV-8 looks like space-age cookware, or a motorised RC hospital bedpan. It's described as a nuclear tank, though, which is even less probable than a radio controlled bedpan. As for the unanticipated pics of unknown

It just seems the idea man behind that tank read too many sci fi comics that popped up after the area 51 incident....stared too long at those old b/w TVs ....which probably ended with him joining the few in history that got discharged with a section 8 ...Thus Aptly named TV 8

OH...It's damn UGLY no matter what angle you look at it from

Fireflies..I'm actually quite impressed by the lengths forum members go to, to unearth the truth...and 'out' the Fireflies. The error I made describing the M4 as a fully cast model was just that: an error. I meant to write 'welded'. A couple of weeks ago, I was looking into options for donor Shermans on Ebay with a view to making a Firefly. I saw the Mato M4A1 upper hull there (no longer available from Mato )apparently, thinking that in part, at least, it might pass for the Hybrid/Composite version of the Firefly. That was not to be, as I was outbid by someone else..but by then I was convinced that no Fireflies were made from the M4A1 upper hull...not until my typo, and the subsequent..almost Penn and Teller-like appearance of the Canadian 'Grizzlies' (11 were made apparently, but they never saw action). Magic. Now we see ... hey Presto! an M4A3 Firefly being tested on a range...what's next? ..an M22 Firefly?

Thing about Shermans....You never know....There is some truth to what Historians say and write...thing is many weren't there....you never know what was created "IN THE FIELD"... So who knows for sure...because of the Sherman's widespread use...many many changes were made that way to many of the variants produced....the photo of the Polish brigade shows three...You say none were put into use...so how is there a photo of them in use...It could be surmised that they could have been a result of a salvage / combine ...but as I strongly stress...Who really knows...those kind of mods wouldn't necessarily made it into any "official" log....So for me...I just keep an open mind about it


ALPHA

[frankie]

Right lets put this to bed....Ive put an insert in the Polish brigades pic to show where you need to focus...There is a clear diagonal weld where the cast front section has been attached to the welded rear section making them composite or HYBRID Fireflys...

[frankie]

..and here's a quote from the Shaddock Sherman page, please read the last sentance.....

The Sherman Firefly was a World War II British variant of the Sherman tank, fitted with the powerful British 17 pounder anti-tank gun as its main weapon. Originally conceived as a stopgap until future British tank designs came into service, the Sherman Firefly became the most common vehicle with the 17 pounder in World War II. Three different variants of Sherman Firefly served during the Second World War, each based on different variants of the M4 Sherman. The Firefly conversion was carried out on Sherman I (M4), Sherman I Hybrid (M4 Composite) and Sherman V (M4A4) tanks. Some sources state that several Sherman IIs (M4A1) were converted and used in action, but photos allegedly showing these conversions are in fact views of the front half of Sherman I Hybrid Fireflies

[ALPHA]

Another couple shots of the Grizzly

Party tank


Apparently fitted with two different guns


Looking Normal

ALPHA

[ALPHA]

Right lets put this to bed....Ive put an insert in the Polish brigades pic to show where you need to focus...There is a clear diagonal weld where the cast front section has been attached to the welded rear section making them composite or HYBRID Fireflys...

..and here's a quote from the Shaddock Sherman page, please read the last sentance.....

The Sherman Firefly was a World War II British variant of the Sherman tank, fitted with the powerful British 17 pounder anti-tank gun as its main weapon. Originally conceived as a stopgap until future British tank designs came into service, the Sherman Firefly became the most common vehicle with the 17 pounder in World War II. Three different variants of Sherman Firefly served during the Second World War, each based on different variants of the M4 Sherman. The Firefly conversion was carried out on Sherman I (M4), Sherman I Hybrid (M4 Composite) and Sherman V (M4A4) tanks. Some sources state that several Sherman IIs (M4A1) were converted and used in action, but photos allegedly showing these conversions are in fact views of the front half of Sherman I Hybrid Fireflies

Thanks Frankie ...you did a lot of work there...and yes ...I can see the welds now that you have pointed them out


ALPHA