Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

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c.rainford73
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Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by c.rainford73 »

Couple of questions on this hydro drive panzer iv...

Are the front sprockets no longer gear driven and run free like rear idlers used to be setup? Just reversed? I assume the front final drives are not connected in this version....

How are track tension and adjustments achieved?

Thanks fellas





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Tanks alot.... :wave:
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43rdRecceReg
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Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

c.rainford73 wrote:Couple of questions on this hydro drive panzer iv...

Are the front sprockets no longer gear driven and run free like rear idlers used to be setup? Just reversed? I assume the front final drives are not connected in this version....

How are track tension and adjustments achieved?

Thanks fellasImage





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There's a brief description of how the hydrostatic drive was installed and used here. It probably won't answer all your questions, but the innovation certainly peeked the interest of the boffins at the Aberdeen proving ground.
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/n ... m-antrieb/
Apparently (and I didn't know until I looked) this Pz IV variant, and its combat potential (or lack of) are widely discussed on WoT... :think:
Here's a description of their current commercial applications From Wiki (not many other sources out there, after a cursory scour... :problem: )
"....Hydrostatic drive systems are used on excavators, lawn tractors, forklifts, winch drive systems, heavy lift equipment, agricultural machinery, earth-moving equipment, etc. An arrangement for motor-vehicle transmission was probably used on the Ferguson F-1 P99 racing car in about 1961.
The Human Friendly Transmission of the Honda DN-01 is hydrostatic....."
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please"- Mark Twain.
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43rdRecceReg
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Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

Returning to the theme of a projected Pz IV build. You can pay four to six times more to buy a Tamiya full-option Pz IV kit (in the UK, anyway.. :'( ).,,but do you get four times the detail? Have a look at these:
Tamiya Shovel
Tamiya Shovel
and Taigen/HLs embossed (embedded) version:
Taigen /Heng long shovel
Taigen /Heng long shovel
Ok, well, yes they are from different versions: Tamiya's is a PV IV ausf. J, and Taigen the Ausf. F2; but the difference is clear...
Then compare the jacks and jack mounts:
Tamiya jack and mounts
Tamiya jack and mounts
Taigen Ausf F2 jack and jack mounts
Taigen Ausf F2 jack and jack mounts
The detailing is far more subtle on the Tamiya version, and the retaining brackets also have butterfly nuts. They're absent on the simpler Taigen/HL offering.
Of course, the detail might not be that important if you just want a battler. In any event, it's always possible to buy the simpler Taigen model and use bespoke third party accessories and parts from the likes of Schumo and Aber (
https://www.axels-modellbau-shop.de/kat ... panzer-iv/ )
The embedded tools can be sanded away, and replaced by more authentic looking parts; but that's where the costs (in time and money) begin to mount. Then it's possible to reach the point where the Tamiya might have been justified in the first instance. Then again, many contributors love the challenge of enhancing their tanks, as well as their skills :) That's what modelling's about, after all. Others just want a fine, and accurate, looking model that can also handle itself in a tank on tank set to :lolno: This is where the Tamiya holds the high ground and- for now- the market.
Incidentally, regarding the Tamiya jack mounting brackets, the first will only fit one way; the second either way. Since I wasn't especially bothered with lining up the butterflies, I chose a mixed orientation.. :think: Then again, I'm only a semi- rivet counter
:D
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rolling-thunder
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Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by rolling-thunder »

Part of this Hobby is cost. I can't afford a Tamiya kit straight up, life tend to get in the way, so saving is out. If I buy a Tank, modding it up to a higher standard is part of the fun. I have enough sources for diamond plate & other accessories that I don't need to search around when it comes to modding the Tank. My Panzer IV has taken a back seat to my Tiger at the moment but i'm still buying upgrade parts for the Panzer IV when I can. I prefer all the deck accessories to be separate pieces for ease of replacement. I will be following your build with interest.
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43rdRecceReg
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Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

rolling-thunder wrote:Part of this Hobby is cost. I can't afford a Tamiya kit straight up, life tend to get in the way, so saving is out. If I buy a Tank, modding it up to a higher standard is part of the fun. I have enough sources for diamond plate & other accessories that I don't need to search around when it comes to modding the Tank. My Panzer IV has taken a back seat to my Tiger at the moment but i'm still buying upgrade parts for the Panzer IV when I can. I prefer all the deck accessories to be separate pieces for ease of replacement. I will be following your build with interest.
I entirely agree with the points you make. The hazy idea behind this project was to create a hybrid Tamiya rolling chassis, and then make or modify bits to allow for a non-Tamiya interior. At the same time, I wanted to draw attention to the options available to punters of varying skill levels, and also cost-wise to the hobby that keeps on ....er..taking :D ..though it does give back richly. Try explaining that to a partner who catches you, as you surreptitiously intercept the courier bearing your latest acquisition... :O >:< It's going to be a case of... biff, bash, Boff... :D .
Two unforeseen problems I've encountered along the way, whilst ignoring some of the inklings lurking in the Archives.
1. Tamiya uses some unusual screw sizes. Finding a pack of 2.6mm x 6mm cap screws, and then 2.6mm tappers, is almost like panning for gold. There are more examples. Sourcing the 'C" pack of screws has been almost impossible.
2. Certain sprues are equally elusive. For this reason (and the eye- watering cost of some parts), I may make some of my own lower hull components.
I built a Tamiya King Tiger recently (see: 'Blitz build', if interested), and I was only able to afford that, in part, because of an unprecedented, and unexpected refund from my local energy provider. It appears that one of the new digital electricity
meters had it in for me, and took a tip from the recently shorn sheep surrounding my house, and decided tofleece me. It sucked up cash, like an electric Vampire, for almost two years..until it conked out completely, with a digital nervous breakdown (not my hammer and a stake :shh: ) :D
Last edited by 43rdRecceReg on Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Raminator
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Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by Raminator »

I had a dig through some boxes and came across these, Roy:
  • IMAG0781.jpg
M2.6 x 6 mm cap heads, 2.6 x 8 mm and 2.6 x 10 mm self-tappers. If you're unable to source anything closer to home, you're more than welcome to some. How many do you need?
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43rdRecceReg
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Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

Raminator wrote:I had a dig through some boxes and came across these, Roy:
  • IMAG0781.jpg
M2.6 x 6 mm cap heads, 2.6 x 8 mm and 2.6 x 10 mm self-tappers. If you're unable to source anything closer to home, you're more than welcome to some. How many do you need?
A generous offer, Ram :thumbup: Sites such as this one, when Googled, appear to have what I want, but upon closer investigation it emerges that the M2.6mm range of fastenings has to be 'sourced globally'. It would appear that the M2.6 size is rarely used in the UK.
https://www.trfastenings.com/products/c ... 005525-103
I would need 18 of the M2.6mm X 6mm. That's 'MC3' in Tamiya Pz IV-speak.They're essential to the suspension system. I recall the nightmare I had fitting the Taigen suspension setup to the Asiatam metal hull. All the provided fittings, and I mean all were either too tight, or too slack. :thumbdown:
M2.5mm doesn't cut it, as even with a drop of thread-lock, these screws make for a sloppy fit. I don't want bits falling off into the grass on the Hybrid's maiden clank :lolno:
If you have eighteen, let me know the postage from Oz, and I can defray the cost through Paypal...assuming you use Paypal. If not, we can work something out :thumbup:
Roy
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please"- Mark Twain.
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43rdRecceReg
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Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

I only wish I had a Trumpeter version of the Pz IV to augment the comparisons. Modeller's often speak very highly of their authentic-looking details. But I'd also like to see how they tackle the suspension and return roller systems. Trumpeter 4s come in, well.. four flavours (ausfs: F2; H; J; and J observer tank), and in 2,000 parts. It is not an RC RTR model, but could serve as the highly detailed basis for one, for an enterprising builder. :thumbup:
the 'J' version is around £215-230 from European sources, but it can be had from China for around £190 (inc. postage). I may well buy one.
Any model you you buy, or build is only going to be as good, or strong, as (the saying goes)..'it's weakest link'. Given more consistency in wiring and electronics of late, the weakest link is then likely to be in the drive train.
Taigen/HL/Asiatam seem to have copied much of Tamiya's drive train set up, but with a few significant differences.
Here's the Asiatam setup for the return rollers. This is from the manual that comes with their Pz IV metal chassis kit. (Still available from: https://www.asiatam.de/product_info.php ... rn0nqihg82 and Tankzone. Tankzone's reputation has improved a lot of late, according to some members. Having never used them, I can't say. Once, however, they had a bad name here. :problem: )
Asiatam return roller arrangement
Asiatam return roller arrangement
Here's the Tamiya setup:
Tamiya return roller arrangement.
Tamiya return roller arrangement.
Tamiya rollers have a flat on the pivot shaft, that engages with a flat in the Return Roller Housing (there's also a matching dished washed designed to to fit the 'D" profile of the shaft. :thumbup: )
Tamiya Return roller shaft with 'D' profile
Tamiya Return roller shaft with 'D' profile
This, together with a nyloc, nut helps to keep the shaft locked in place whilst allowing the roller to turn freely. It's a pretty precise fitting.
Tamiya Return Roller housing 'D' shape
Tamiya Return Roller housing 'D' shape
The Asiatam/ Taigen setup..though outwardly similar, is a nightmare to fit and works very badly.
The shaft is round, and the only concession to locking in place is a barely noticeable shoulder at the end of the locking thread. In the kit suppled to me by Asiatam, ordinary hex nuts were supplied to lock the unit in to the chassis side.
The shaft is a sloppy fit in the poorly cast white metal wheels, and when you tighten the nut up to reduce the sideways play, the whole assembly is inclined to spin. 8O having taken the trouble to copy Tamiya's hull and drive train, they should
have gone all the way and copied their 'D' shaft locking system too. It works. The Asaitam/HL/Taigen knockoffs are poor imitations....for now. :shh:
Last edited by 43rdRecceReg on Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please"- Mark Twain.
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Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by jarndice »

I absolutely agree with you Roy on the failings of all but TAMIYAs take on the Panzer 4 suspension,
When "Philipat" was starting along the rocky road of what became his superb PZ4 Build I tried to explain to him how I fitted the Roller axles,(Without success I fear),
I build up the roller assembly then push the axle through the hull and mark a line around a couple of mm of the shaft where it enters the inside of the hull.
Then take it out and "Dremel" a slot on the mark,
Put the assembly back in the hull and slide the straight side of an "R" Clip over the slot and the curved side of the "R" Clip around the rest of the axle,
It holds the axle and roller in place but makes removal a doddle.
Shaun.
I think I am about to upset someone :haha:
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43rdRecceReg
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Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

A quick hull comparison:
The Tamiya hull (L) is made from 1mm aluminium alloy, where the Asiatam is of a beefier 1.5mm grade. Taigen have now released a cast version of the lower hull that noted for its solidity, at 2mm thick. 8O
Pz iV metal hulls compared
Pz iV metal hulls compared
New Taigen Pz IV metal hull
New Taigen Pz IV metal hull
New Taigen Pz IV metal hull.jpeg (76.99 KiB) Viewed 7068 times
As many will attest, working on plastic is a lot easier than modifying metal, and so it's important that the metal lower hull should be as accurate as possible at the outset. The Tamiya hull ticks all the right boxes; the Asiatam looks the part,
and also addresses the irritating rear return roller issue, along with the Tamiya. But I had to saw almost 1cm off the back of the Asiatam hull to make it line up with, and fit, all available upper hulls, including those by Tamiya, HL and Taigen.. >:<
The new lower hull looks as if it could actually stop a bullet; but, frustratingly, has the same detailing flaws at it's plastic predecessors.
Tamiya and Asiatam hulls
Tamiya and Asiatam hulls
It has taken me many, many hours of frustration, cursing, and improvisation to get the Asiatam hull to the point where- with a battery, an MFU, a smoker, and an upper hull- it should run ok. For a trial run, it only needs an MFU, battery and TX.
The Tamiya hull is a work in progress, but a joy to work on so far. Everything fits as it should. :thumbup: STOP PRESS:
I have to say I'm humbled by the selfless generosity one encounters here form time to time. Mike ('Sassgrunt' from Hawaii) is treating me to some parts for the lower hull that he has in his Tamiya treasure chest. What an A1 gent!.These are parts that are hard to access currently. I can only say that it's really an inspiration how members fill the gaps in life, and model tanks too..without asking for anything in return. Though in this instance, i'll find some means of reciprocating in future.. :thumbup:
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please"- Mark Twain.
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