Brushed vs brushless motors.

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Simonslim
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Brushed vs brushless motors.

Post by Simonslim »

This has probably been asked before but why are rc tanks still using archaic technology with brushed motors when brushless systems are so readily available, inexpensive, mush more reliable, have more power to weight and are so much more energy efficient.
I've been using brushless motors/esc's/lipos on rc aircraft for years now and I find it hard to grasp why this branch of the hobby is still using brushed systems. I do realise that weight isn't so much of an issue in tanks but surely performance and efficiency is.
I have just started with tanks, Torro Tiger 1 metal and love the ruggedness of the thing and once I get a full grasp of it I will be converting it to brushless, I'm already usinga 4000mah 2s lipos with a low voltage warning system. The 4000mah lipo is the same physical size as the standard 2000mah nimh that came with it and just needing the plugs changed to fit.
I know some people still have the "oooh nasty scary lipo Syndrome" but in the twenty years I've been using them, I've yet to have a scary episode. If you follow the simple safety guidelines you should have no worries at all. If you short out you will risk fire but that goes for any battery whether it be lipo, nimh or nicad.
I will probably have to bypass my IBU2U control board for the motor control but my TX will cover this using differential motor control mix and using rc car esc's I should have reverse sorted too.
Any input or guidance would be appreciated.
Simon.
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Max-U52
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Re: Brushed vs brushless motors.

Post by Max-U52 »

I've been using lipos for about 4 years now with no trouble, and I agree it's time to get over the fear of lipo bats.

I'm not exactly sure why the manufacturers still use brushed motors, but they work just fine so it may have just been a case of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!". I'm also not sure if brushless can work underwater? Brushed motors do just fine underwater and that seems to be an advantage, as well as the fact that brushed motors are ridiculously cheap. I know brushless have come way down in recent years, but for someone producing thousands of these things it might just be more cost effective to use brushed motors when you're talking about such large quantities. Also, brushless motors will (as you pointed out) need different ESCs and won't work with any of the currently available tank controls boards, like clark or ibu.

Imex Erik did a brushless tank and man, was that thing fast. Jumpin' school buses kind of fast. @) :haha:

Here's Erik's thread, it may give you some ideas

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-tank ... speed.html

Hope that helps.
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Re: Brushed vs brushless motors.

Post by General Jumbo01 »

Yep, l felt exactly the same coming from racing all types of RC cars. The answer, l suspect, is simply cost.

A tank needs very little in the way of motor performance, as illustrated by the motor sizes used. Likewise the battery, with so little amp draw from the motor a 2000mah nimh runs it for quite a while. That means that a pair of sub £5 motors and a cheap hard case battery pack dies the job.

Of course you can fit a pair of brushless motors, sensored if you like, a pair of suitable escs and a high capacity mah Lipo but it will cost much more and not actually give you any benefit!

Be thankful that you can make good use of all those old 6 cell Nihms and Nicad packs you still have and the huge pleasure of setting up your old com lathe and skimming those coms back to a smooth shine again.

To sum up, the RC tank hobby appears to be split between ex-static modellers and ex-RC modellers, the first are more about historic accuracy and cosmetics than miniature engineering performance - a sort of static modeling with a motor, and the latter more focused on transmissions and electronics. Together we make a happy bunch!

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Son of a gun-ner
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Re: Brushed vs brushless motors.

Post by Son of a gun-ner »

This is true, I used to just be a modeller, but wasn't bothered by historical accuracy, just wished the models would run. I've never really had an interest for RC till I discovered these tanks.

As for brushed motors, the tank manufacturers love them because they are cheap and work with their already cheap electronics.

As for in a tank, brushed motors hardly get the wear and tear of a car or plane.
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Re: Brushed vs brushless motors.

Post by Pak36 »

Brushless motors work just fine uderwater, as long as the ESC is waterproof.

Brushless motors can give huge amounts of torque, but really give most benefits at high revs, where the lack of friction from having no brushes or commutator come into their own. They require more complex electronic speed controllers, as the ESC has to pulse the power into the various poles at the right time to spin.

Sensorless motors do this relatively crudely, which is fine for most RC applications, but for racers and crawlers...sensored ESCs and motors give more feedback and give smoother pick up at low 'throttle' and are generally more responsive. All things things cost money....as do the neodymium magets the brushless motors use.

If you can get all the power you need from a very cheap to manufacture brushed motor, why not?
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Re: Brushed vs brushless motors.

Post by jerome59 »

I've been using this gear box for years and it's always worked for me.
Regards ;)
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Re: Brushed vs brushless motors.

Post by tomhugill »

Simonslim wrote:This has probably been asked before but why are rc tanks still using archaic technology with brushed motors when brushless systems are so readily available, inexpensive, mush more reliable, have more power to weight and are so much more energy efficient.
I've been using brushless motors/esc's/lipos on rc aircraft for years now and I find it hard to grasp why this branch of the hobby is still using brushed systems. I do realise that weight isn't so much of an issue in tanks but surely performance and efficiency is.
I have just started with tanks, Torro Tiger 1 metal and love the ruggedness of the thing and once I get a full grasp of it I will be converting it to brushless, I'm already usinga 4000mah 2s lipos with a low voltage warning system. The 4000mah lipo is the same physical size as the standard 2000mah nimh that came with it and just needing the plugs changed to fit.
I know some people still have the "oooh nasty scary lipo Syndrome" but in the twenty years I've been using them, I've yet to have a scary episode. If you follow the simple safety guidelines you should have no worries at all. If you short out you will risk fire but that goes for any battery whether it be lipo, nimh or nicad.
I will probably have to bypass my IBU2U control board for the motor control but my TX will cover this using differential motor control mix and using rc car esc's I should have reverse sorted too.
Any input or guidance would be appreciated.
Because in a 6 plus kg tank the weight savings are pointless when brushed can deliver all the required performances without too much effort. Most control systems are centred around brushed and theres little incentive to change where it's not required.
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Max-U52
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Re: Brushed vs brushless motors.

Post by Max-U52 »

In other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. 8) @)
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Re: Brushed vs brushless motors.

Post by Jay-Em »

One word : “Cost”

Brushed 380’s and 390’s cost pennies to make and/or buy in bulk.

Brushless, especially sensored, could -in time- become more mainstream in tanks. Outrunners perform very good in tracked toys like Kyosho’s Blizzard. Oodles of torque, frugal with the amps, very low wear, not bothered by water/snow and pretty good at slow-running ( due to them being mostly 6 to 12 poles) However, on low-quality esc’s even théy sometimes have trouble finding the proper start position, and can get a bit chuggy.

Still.. cheap, high-torque 2200kv 400-size outrunners ( that would fit HL gearboxes) are about 15 bucks, add to that the more expensive ESC electronics needed. Well. Brushed is still the way to go.

Purely technical? Yes. (Sensored) brushless is fàr superior to brushed beercans, but wày more expensive to implement. And sènsored brushless, unlike its sensorless brethren, does hate water. At least, all my sensored setups get in a tizzy when wet, while f.i. the ( sensorless) outrunners in my airboats have even run ùnder water ( airboats with far too powerful motors have a habit of capsizing. :haha: )

Non sensored inrunners -like said above- àlways have a bit of chugging, however tiny, that makes them a tad less useful in a tank ( or crawler)
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