Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

This section is for builds that are not strictly Tamiya or Heng Long. For instance, replacing the electronics from a WSN or Matorro, or even a scratch-build.
Post Reply
sassgrunt
Sergeant
Posts: 726
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:08 am
Location: Hawaii, USA

Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by sassgrunt »

I've been waiting for years to foist this junk off on someone; and Roy volunteered to take it off my hands. (Of course, what he doesn't know yet, is that I stuffed the box full of Panzer THREE parts; which won't do him any good on his build. Won't HE be surprised when he opens that box and tries to fit up things! I smile when I imagine the colorful language that will follow)!
User avatar
PainlessWolf
Lieutenant-Colonel
Posts: 7399
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:09 pm
Location: Southern Colorado Rocky Mountains

Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by PainlessWolf »

43rd R&R,
Good luck on paying Sassgrunt back. He'd rather us 'pay it forward' which is completely cool. After years of nagging, he did finally allow me to build him a Tiger. *chuckles*
regards and following along on your amazing builds,
Painless
...Here for the Dawn...
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
Major
Posts: 6295
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

jarndice wrote:I absolutely agree with you Roy on the failings of all but TAMIYAs take on the Panzer 4 suspension,
When "Philipat" was starting along the rocky road of what became his superb PZ4 Build I tried to explain to him how I fitted the Roller axles,(Without success I fear),
I build up the roller assembly then push the axle through the hull and mark a line around a couple of mm of the shaft where it enters the inside of the hull.
Then take it out and "Dremel" a slot on the mark,
Put the assembly back in the hull and slide the straight side of an "R" Clip over the slot and the curved side of the "R" Clip around the rest of the axle,
It holds the axle and roller in place but makes removal a doddle.
Shaun.
It's the only conclusion we can reach, Shaun, after testing the available options. :| Maybe someone will make a bespoke, after-market, suspension system for this one day. :think: Given the popularity of the Panzer IV, it would be well received, I'm sure. Christian Ludwig has the tech for it.... (are you listening, Chris?). The setup for the Matilda was a joy to behold. :thumbup:
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please"- Mark Twain.
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
Major
Posts: 6295
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

PainlessWolf wrote:43rd R&R,
Good luck on paying Sassgrunt back. He'd rather us 'pay it forward' which is completely cool. After years of nagging, he did finally allow me to build him a Tiger. *chuckles*
regards and following along on your amazing builds,
Painless
:D Yes, it was nice of him to let you loose on the Tiger; and we are in turn grateful to you both for unleashing it, in what emerged as one of the most memorable, and instructive threads :thumbup:
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please"- Mark Twain.
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
Major
Posts: 6295
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

sassgrunt wrote:I've been waiting for years to foist this junk off on someone; and Roy volunteered to take it off my hands. (Of course, what he doesn't know yet, is that I stuffed the box full of Panzer THREE parts; which won't do him any good on his build. Won't HE be surprised when he opens that box and tries to fit up things! I smile when I imagine the colorful language that will follow)!
:haha: :lolno:
Duped Highlanders hunting MacSass..the tricky one
Duped Highlanders hunting MacSass..the tricky one
Enraged Highlanders.jpg (69.16 KiB) Viewed 4638 times
Then...I guess it'll be even more of an Hybrid that I'd anticipated, Mike :haha: :thumbup: Thanks again :clap:
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please"- Mark Twain.
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
Major
Posts: 6295
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

Now here's a wee look at the competing suspension configurations. The Heng Long/ Taigen/Asiatam offerings are cast white metal versions of HL's bog standard Pz IV plastic setup; with a little detail enhancement here and there. 'The mention of "Metal'
often sets enhancers and upgraders reaching for the old credit card. But adding additional weight to the model, is only really worthwhile if there's a discernible improvement in performance and reliability. I doubt that the Taigen metal suspension improves performance- it may even inhibit it; but it certainly looks reasonably like the real deal.
Asiatam/Taigen suspension compared with Tamiya's
Asiatam/Taigen suspension compared with Tamiya's
Once again, the Taigem/Asiatam setup(centre and left) depends on a shouldered screw to retain the the whole assembly to the tank, with no flat on the shaft to prevent it from turning, along with the rocker arms. It doesn't have bearings, and the shaft is a sloppy fit. This means the whole unit can 'crab' slightly when the drive train is pulling hard. Tightening the shaft reduces some of the unwanted excess movement, but can also add significant flexing resistance to the suspension rockers; thus reducing the desired scissors effect. Worse still, the wheels are also secured a shouldered screw, and without bearings. Tightening the shaft bolt (held in place in the suspension bar underneath the tank, by grub screw) to stop the wheels from wobbling, can increase their rolling resistance too. Too much movement of the bogies and wheels can lead to the tank pulling to one side, or the motors stalling....
Tamiya's wheel's (TOP right) have bearings and a lockable shaft....'Nuff said!
The Tamiya rockers (right) are a much better fit, but I'm still waiting for the circular spacers that the suspension leaf runs through. The Asiatam leaf spring is held in place by a square profile chrome plated clip (L). More typical is the example in the middle where the clip has broken off. They're very poorly made. In fact, one Taigen Pz IV I bought had three of the clips missing or broken when it arrived. :O Super :think: glueing the remaining ones in place is a prudent move..
The Taigen/HL/Asiatam design looks good, but performs badly. The Tamiya setup looks good and works well. My only reservation with it, is that the leaf could be a tad more flexible...
More later..
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please"- Mark Twain.
User avatar
jarndice
Colonel
Posts: 8003
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:27 am
Location: the mountains of hertfordshire

Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by jarndice »

Roy about this time last year I was in A & E awaiting the laying on of hands by the Godgiven angels of the NHS, :thumbup: :clap: :wave:
I have no wish to make such visits an annual event which is why I am holding back from filling many expletive laden pages of the Forum on the 1/16 scale Panzer 4 Suspension System.
Suffice to say that Tamiya when faced with reproducing a working example in 1/16 from the full sized prototype the first thing they did was to lock away in a deep dark dungeon the Tamiya bean counters,
The Engineers then got on with producing a WORKING example of the system,
I am minded at this point to remark on "Fords" assessment of the "BMC" Mini, They had gotten hold of an early version which they stripped down and amongst other things they priced its build cost against its showroom price, their conclusion was that each "Mini" would LOSE "BMC" £20/25, !!!
Indeed in the history of the original "Mini" it never made a profit for the company, :{ Bloody engineers. :lolno:
You make a valid point about the value or otherwise in buying aftermarket metal upgrades for any part of our Tanks because we are gulled into believing they are without question superior to the Plastic/ABS original.
Fitting metal parts begins an expensive and very vicious circle,
Adding metal to a lightly stressed plastic/abs assembly equals more stress which needs more metal which ---well you get the idea.
Now to that piece of bent spring steel,
This actually came separately in the plastic bag from "Asiatam" and was fitted in the build up of the assembly under tension, this supposedly gave the suspension its swing arm effect, which is why it was loose fitting as gluing it in place would negate its point
You then offered up the whole preassembled (LOOSE)system to the hull where the Screw would hold :haha: :haha: everything including "The bent piece of metal"in place, If only,
I have lost count of the times I have trodden on a long lost PZ4 spring steel suspension fitting that has "PINGED" across the workshop.
You say that they are sometimes missing from the upgrade pack,
No they are not, "Asiatam" no longer includes them, and why should they? After all they never worked. :thumbdown:
The only piece that worked was the single leaf spring attached by a rivet at one end to the base of the assembly but it only worked for as long as the spring steel clip wrapped around the loose end of the leaf was in place,
The clip was only held in place by being under tension so that when the suspension was working (Sorry my little joke) the tension was removed and the clip slid off and was lost,
I swear the foundations of my home are composed of long lost metal upgrades for 1/16 scale Tanks :/
If you do have them in place the first thing to do is to squirt a drop of "Superglue" at it.
Enough,
I hear the sounds of an ambulance siren coming up the lane.
Shaun.
Last edited by jarndice on Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think I am about to upset someone :haha:
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
Major
Posts: 6295
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

.....
I hear the sounds of an ambulance siren coming up the lane.
Shaun.[/quote]

Well, let's hope they treat you to the big whiff of 'Laughing gas' I was given when my broken right foot was locked in an improbable 5 O'Clock position :O :D How I managed to chuckle at the state of that semi-detached extremity, I don't know; but it's a testament to the effectiveness of the gas :lolno: .

That aside, let's hope the sound coming up the lane will be the courier bringing you a Tamiya Panzer IV for Christmas, and not a trip to Stentland :thumbup:
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please"- Mark Twain.
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
Major
Posts: 6295
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

This what the Asiatam metal suspension looks like in the metal hull. The whole assembly pivots on a shouldered screw running into the metal housing bar bolted to the floor of the hull. In this crucial respect, it differs completely from the Tamiya arrangement. The Tamiya unit is bolted to the SIDE of the hull, and has three effective fixing points; making it much more stable, and less prone to movement under load. :thumbup:
Asiatam metal hull suspension mounting point.
Asiatam metal hull suspension mounting point.
If you look carefully (click pic to enlarge..) you'll also see the ends of the arms of wee spring that flexes the rockers. This is one of the two annoying springs in the module. >:<
It would be possible to drill holes in the side of the Asiatam alloy hull to take the Tamiya system; so that's a blessing of sorts; but the drill work would have to be painstaking. That said, a properly made metal template cum drill guide ought to suffice o- :thumbup:
Last edited by 43rdRecceReg on Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please"- Mark Twain.
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
Major
Posts: 6295
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Re: Contemplating a Panzer IV build? Then...

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

Here, in the Tamiya manual, you can see some of the essential differences in the way suspension components are mounted.. B|
Tamiya Pz IV suspension mounting points...
Tamiya Pz IV suspension mounting points...
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please"- Mark Twain.
Post Reply

Return to “Other Builds”