Comet A34- Ludwig kit

This section is for builds that are not strictly Tamiya or Heng Long. For instance, replacing the electronics from a WSN or Matorro, or even a scratch-build.

Postby biertje » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:16 am

Hi
I thought you were doing a great job on the mantlet.
Still not sure how I'm going to mount mine.
Thank you I have been really pleased with how it is turning out so far.
Lee's cromwell is really good.
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:20 am

Thanks, Tim :thumbup: Yes, Lee's Cromwell looks like a labour of love; but these builds can also be a labour of hate at times... :problem: :D
Well, I have the mountings, finally. The gun-holding mantlet now moves with ease :thumbup: Phew...what a pain >:<
I'm using Mato Tiger 1 axles for the trunnion pivots/swivels. Finally, by using dividers, rulers, and No. 1 eyeball I located the optimum position for the pins in this setup.
Comet Mantlet housing-Before-A.jpeg
Comet mantlet housing-Before...

Image
Comet Mantlet Housing-After-B.jpeg
Comet Mantlet Housing- post-operative...


...and with the Mato Tiger axles fitted ( but not bonded in yet)
Comet mantlet- Trunnion pivots-C.jpeg
Comet Mantlet Trunnion Pivot pics...

Image
Comet Mantlet-Trunnion pivot detail-D.jpeg
Mantlet trunnion pivot-detail...

I'm happy with the outcome so far. :) Why? well:
1. The assembly is now more like the real deal, in principle, anyway,
2. It actually moves smoothly now, and should allow about the right amount of barrel elevation and depression. :thumbup: Should being the operative word...
The mato axles will be shortened on the outside, to be flush with the mantlet surface. That's after being bonded in place with JB Weld metal epoxy.(Great stuff!!)
I could put bearings on the inboard shaft, an lock them in place with nyloc nuts. or, I may just use a nut and washer.
Overall, coming up with this solution has taken more time, and more patience than any other part of the project. But, semi-scratch building being what it is, it would surprise me one little bit (een lutte beten in Platt Deutsch)..if some other conundrum crops up to top this one for frustration. >:< :lolno:
Last edited by 43rdRecceReg on Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby jarndice » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:56 am

I don't know where you get your fixings but I have dealt with http://www.modelfixings.co.uk for years with very positive results and I long ago discovered they sell Metric NYLOCs from M2 upto M6 with of course the complementary bolts and washers if they are needed.
Love the determination to get the Mantlet "Just Right", :thumbup:
Scale engineering far too often has to be a compromise so it is all the more satisfying when thought and guile produce a good result.
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:36 pm

jarndice wrote:I don't know where you get your fixings but I have dealt with http://www.modelfixings.co.uk for years with very positive results and I long ago discovered they sell Metric NYLOCs from M2 upto M6 with of course the complementary bolts and washers if they are needed.
Love the determination to get the Mantlet "Just Right", :thumbup:
Scale engineering far too often has to be a compromise so it is all the more satisfying when thought and guile produce a good result.


Many thanks, Maestro! Yes, well I make my own fixings (brackets etc..) mostly, or improvise them from disparate sources (for cars, domestic wiring, or whatever comes to hand). Fixings including Nuts, bolts, washers, sheet brass, styrene and so on are easily obtainable thought sources on Ebay. I wouldn't be surprised if Modelfixings is represented there, Shaun. Prime Miniatures is, and I've often used them for modelling-scale brass nuts, screws, grub screws and other fixings -nut drivers too. :thumbup:

I think there's not much point in building a scale model, unless it bears a decent resemblance to the real thing. This rider also applies to the moving parts as well: it's best if the scale model functions like its bigger brother.
This explains some of the determination, I guess. The rest is down to my own mildly nerdy, OCD nature. :D Thanks for the link, Shaun!.
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Postby biertje » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:39 pm

Hi Roy

Spend some time on the PC with the WOT files and i think I'm quite close to the oritginal now.
I'll try printing a set this week for a test.
Also found out that the resin mantlet and the one in the bronco kit are way to pointy and should be more of a flat plate.
One other important ting to remember is that the comet was armed with a 77mm gun and not a 17pounder so it should also have a shorter barrel.

Keep up the good work and you wont need my help at all in the end ;)

Greetings Tim
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:24 pm

biertje wrote:Hi Roy

Spend some time on the PC with the WOT files and i think I'm quite close to the oritginal now.
I'll try printing a set this week for a test.
Also found out that the resin mantlet and the one in the bronco kit are way to pointy and should be more of a flat plate.
One other important ting to remember is that the comet was armed with a 77mm gun and not a 17pounder so it should also have a shorter barrel.

Keep up the good work and you wont need my help at all in the end ;)

Greetings Tim

Thanks, Tim. yes, it's a common misconception that the Comet had the 17-Pounder installed. However, it did have a cut down version of it- the 77mm. It was still capable of knocking a Tiger out. In fact, I gave an account of a Tiger 1 vs Comet encounter earlier in this thread :)
The A30 Challenger had the 17-Pounder (76.2mm), and you've done a great job of recreating it, in your Cruiser Tanks thread! :thumbup:
I'm not clear about the Bronco kit, you mention. Is that similar to Chris Ludwig's design?

Edit: I just checked 'Bronco' online. I see that they specialise in 1/35 scale models. That probably accounts for why I'd not heard of them. The only 1/15 model I've ever built is Tamiya's Cromwell Mk IV- which I used as a maquette for the Ludwig 1/16 build. I guess, you use some of their products as maquettes too (artists' models).
https://www.wonderlandmodels.com/brands/bronco/
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Postby biertje » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:48 am

I'll try to print a correct 77mm gun.
The actual caliber is 76mm but to avoid getting the ammo mixed up they named them as 77mm.
I once spoke to a gentleman that claimed he had knocked out 2 panthers (ore tigers not sure) with one shot.

Thanks for all the compliments on the challenger. It actually is my favourite tank.
Your doing a great job on the comet.

I almost always try to find a 1/35 scale model to help with the dimensions. That's why I have a spare cromwell, challenger and comet kit on hand.
They also com in handy when your rescaling the 1/1000 scales from World of tanks.

Greetings tim
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:37 pm

biertje wrote:Hi Roy

Spend some time on the PC with the WOT files and i think I'm quite close to the oritginal now.
I'll try printing a set this week for a test.
Also found out that the resin mantlet and the one in the bronco kit are way to pointy and should be more of a flat plate.
One other important ting to remember is that the comet was armed with a 77mm gun and not a 17pounder so it should also have a shorter barrel.

Keep up the good work and you wont need my help at all in the end ;)

Greetings Tim


Going back to the suggestion, Tim, that the profile of the resin mantlet should be flatter, here are a couple of pics of the resin and real mantlets, in profile.
16.Comet Mantlet mounting copy.JPG
Comet Mantlet curve- in profile

Here's the resin one. Note how the MG should be up by the centre line of the barrel (if not slightly above it). I'm going to saw it off and reposition it.
Click on pics to ENLARGE them...
Comet Mantlet curve-profile.jpeg
Comet resin Mantlet- curve seen in profile


Just to add a detail; the mantlet moves perfectly now, and should allow about the right amount of elevation. :thumbup:
The next stage, is to find some means of attaching a recoil, and elevation unit, to the barrel and barrel tube housing. That will take some though, but I may begin with Christian's flatpack solution.
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:04 pm

Right, well, getting the mantlet to elevate smoothly has boosted the old endorphins. Now, I think I can move the MG and optical sight without ruining the resin. I just have to cut them out, carefully, and replant them in the correct positions using Milliput. First, I'll drill the holes that will allow a light-emitting MG to be fitted, and maybe some ersatz lens for the optical gunsight.
As ever, click to ENLARGE the pics :thumbup:
Moving Comet Mantlet MG and optical sight.jpeg
Moving the Mantlet MG-pic A-Before surgery

Moving Comet mantlet MG-B.jpeg
Relocating Mantlet MG-pic B-excising MG and optic

Reshaping Comet Mantlet-C.jpeg
Relocating Mantlet MG-pic C

When the Milliput base for the relocated MG, and optical sight, has cured, I'll sand the Mantlet to get form the most credible of contours. I may even bring the MG out a little further.
Comet mantlet-new MG position-D.jpeg
Correct position for MG housing and Optical Sight housing.
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Postby Von Mooflesaaa » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:17 pm

Mighty impressive work being shown, interested to see how you tackle the rest of the build.

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Postby biertje » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:03 pm

Hi

Doing great mate.

This is what I meen with it should be flat.
Image

Greetings Tim
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:10 pm

biertje wrote:Hi

Doing great mate.

This is what I meen with it should be flat.
Image

Greetings Tim


Here's a pic of the Mantlet, Tim, after a wee bit of sanding and contouring. I've added flats either side of the MG mounting, and the optical gunsight. Yes, you were right about the outer mantlet having a slightly flatter profile on the inboard sides (either side of the cannon). Given the nature of this resin casting, I don't want to flatten it much more, lest I weaken it around the gun tube mounting. :|
Image
Comet mantlet- sanding and shaping.jpeg
Comet Mantlet-sanding and contouring...

I think it looks a lot better. At the same time, I'm pleased with the relocation of the MG and optical sight. I may drill the sight out, and add a small tube... the MG will get a flashing (LED) MG barrel eventually.
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:30 pm

Hmm.. the more I look, the more I see the need to add a bit of brass or styrene tube here, to reflect the actual shape of the Optical Sight's slight shroud (now, there's a tongue twister... :lolno: )
Comet Mantlet-optical sight detail.jpg
Comet- Optical Sight's protective shroud
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:02 pm

The transplanted resin MG housing and optical sight bump, still don't appease the inner-nerd. :/ >:<
To get a look I could live with, I drilled out the optical sight, and cut the resin MG mounting out altogether :)
In the process, I made a slight recess for a new MG to be bonded in, using a sharp, square- profile modelling chisel.
Next, I bonded a piece of styrene tube into the optical sight position, using 2-part epoxy. Then I made a new MG housing out of layered and cemented styrene sheets- cut, drilled and sanded to shape.
After this, It was bonded in the MG recess using epoxy.
This is what it looks like now. Obviously, it's covered in dust, and needs final bits of abrading, but this is as far as I go with alteration to the original. Any more, and this part would morph into a labour of hate. >:<
:D
Click to ENLARGE these:
Comet Mantlet-final configuration.jpeg
Comet Mantlet...final configuration

Comet mantlet final shape-B.jpeg
Comet Mantlet-final shape


Comparing these pics with this one, below, you'll see (hopefully) that the optical sight shroud now looks much more like the real deal.
Comet Mantlet-optical sight detail.jpg
Comet-optical sight shroud detail

I've also used this Duxford Comet pic to help shape the MG housing in styrene, as the lines of it are clearly defined here:
Comet screenshot-Duxford Comet.jpg
Duxford Comet-MG housing detail

Time for a cappuccino... :wave:
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Postby biertje » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:19 pm

looking great mate :thumbup:

Here is my lazy 3D printed one next to the resin one.
Image

Image

Image
The dimensions are the same as the resin one.

Imagine spending so much time to get it right and than covering it with the canvas dust cover ;)
Image

Greetings Tim
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:12 am

Yes...the question of how to keep the rain out. :think: Well, Tim, Tom Hugill had a pretty good go at reproducing one of the waterproof tarpaulins, or whatever they used for Mantlets, on his Centurion Mk 3.
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=28468&p=272672&hilit=centurion+build#p272672
By contrast, I don't think I'll find the time, or the will, to attempt one of those. :problem:
The early Comets went into action without the mantlet 'Pacamac', and mine will be one of those, I guess. (The 'Pacamac' was an ultra portable disposable rain-jacket)
In any event, it is- after all- just a model. ;)
Yes, I can see how the printed one differs from the resin version. Then again, the resin version can be re-shaped to look more authentic. I have a 3D printer, but I really don't have the time, at present, to explore CAD. I have a host of musical projects waiting... :)
Another thing I don't like with printed components is the amount of filling and levelling needed (e.g. with Mr Surfacer) to remove the 'layered' lava-flow look. I prefer styrene. :D It's nice and flat to begin with, and makes an excellent pallette for 'enhancements later (Weathering, and so on).
Of course, I'm eager to see how you resolve your own mantlet issues. :thumbup:
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:02 pm

While my modded version of Christian's resin Mantlet wouldn't stand up to the most exacting, most intensive, scrutiny of the committed rivet-counter- it has at least ironed out some of the original's shortcomings.
(It now has some flat areas, and the MG and sighting telescope have been relocated in the correct position). More important to me is that it will elevate properly. The grownup version of the A34 was designed to have
a barrel elevation of 20deg, and depression of 12deg. Mine will do that with ease.
As a stopgap, and until I finally decide what recoil/elevation tech I'll be using, I thought I try out the Christian's solution. I looks like this (as ever, click on a pic to ENLARGE it):
Comet-breech platform-pic A.jpeg
Comet-breech attachment- platform

These are the component parts:
Comet-breech platform-components-B.jpeg
Comet-breech platform- component parts

With that loosely in situ, I then made some caps to represent the trunnion bearings (gun pivots) that can be seen on the movable mantlet. The real ones a slightly bigger, but I made mine by cutting styrene rings off some styrene tubing, and bonded them to the mantlet. Thereafter, I used two-part epoxy to fill the rings. It was almost like making biscuits. :D
Comet-trunnion caps-pic C.jpeg
Comet-trunnion bearing caps

The caps also have the effect of hiding the Mato Tiger 1 steel suspension axles I used for the trunnions.
Comet-gun assembly-pic D.jpeg
Comet-gun assembly-final configuration

Image
I'm also happy with the scratch-built MG housing and sighting telescope ring.
A spot of paint to bring out the details:
Comet-gun assembly-pic E.jpeg
Comet- gun assembly- painted

Comet-gun assembly-pic G.jpeg
Comet Gun assembly- in Olive drab

Image
Comet-gun assembly-pic F.jpeg
Gun assembly in Olive drab
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:39 pm

Having spent what seems like an eternity looking at the Comet Turret, something began to dawn on me lately (yes, I know life has other things to offer :lolno: ), and it's that the front, sloping section of the roof
is too shallow on the Ludwig model. :think: :problem:
Have a look at the angles involved here:
Comet-Turret roof slope- D-model.jpeg
Comet model-frontal slope of Turret roof

Compare it with these real turrets:
Comet-Fiinsh Comet-profile- roof slope.jpg
Comet-Finnish comet- turret slope

Comet-actual Turret roof frontal slope-E.jpg
Comet-showing rake of roof front section

Then I compared these with the blueprint for the Comet. I also used a semi-circular protractor to get an idea of the angles involved.
Comet-Turret roof slope-A.jpeg
Comet blueprint- inclination of frontal turret roof plate


So...I made a template based on the slope angles apparent in the blueprints, and pics of actual Comets n my computer screen. Then, I set 'em against the model to see how much surgery might be needed:
Comet- roof slope-template-B.jpeg
Comet-roof inclination

Comet- roof slope C-model slope.jpeg
Inclination that appears on the model


The model is short, in the slope department, by a few degress. :/ Och well, time to get the saw out. This perceived flaw will bug me forever, until i do something about it. >:< :D I guess, there must be an essential element of masochism in model building :lolno:
Oh, I forgot to mention, that early in the build, I bonded the front sloping section of roof in place. That was when I was still blindly following the build manual. I'd forgotten what a pain the Cromwell was, when installing a gun and Clark recoil with a section of the roof in place. Duhhh... :/ That required double-jointed fingers, and a magic trick, to insert the gun in that confined space..
Bits of the manual should be avoided, or read very carefully- and not in the order the instructions appear in. I should have remembered that. When I did, i managed to remove the front roof plate without damaging the turret. Just as well, eh?
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Postby biertje » Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:20 am

Thanks for spotting that one, now I have to fix it two.
Do you have any dimensions?
Like how low it should be?

Greetings Tim
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:24 am

biertje wrote:Thanks for spotting that one, now I have to fix it two.
Do you have any dimensions?
Like how low it should be?

Greetings Tim


Hi, Tim
I scaled up some photos, and a blueprint (click and drag does it) so that their dimensions, and geometry, roughly correspond with those of the model. Then I printed them. From these I was able to draw a rough comparison between the real thing and Christian's model, and also to make a template for cutting the sides down slightly.
To get a better look (perfect would be hard to achieve), lowering the very front edge by about 3mm should do it. So that's cutting from the apex at the top of the slope, to the bottom edge (3mm reduction would be the base of the triangle, the incline- the hypotenuse).
After this, I need to make some track holders, then the turret will have had all the attention it's going to get. >:< Externally, that is. :|
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