Tamiya Jagdpanther and Plate Spinning

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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:41 am

Update: I started this thread back in February. Since then, the Earth has undergone an enforced transformation- courtesy of microbial malice. The world's economy has also gone to Hell in a huge handcart, making the acquisition of Tamiya parts difficult. In some instances, the factory may not produce certain models, nor related parts, in future. For this reason, I've decided to give my static Jagdpanther a transfusion of parts from my Full-Option Panther. Why? Well, odd though it may seem, I actually prefer the look of the Jagdpanther. What's more, whilst I have other tank-destroyer projects going, I don't actually have a fully functional one to test, out in the garden, currently. Details will be added shortly. Meantime, the original Feb text begins here:-

Back in the 1950s, when we only had one TV channel, the BBC (and then later ITV), jugglers (and other circus acts) were often seen as suitable material for entertaining the postwar masses. :|
Some juggled with balls and clubs; even sticks on fire. Others lay on their backs, and juggled with curled up people (usually diminutive diamante-clad women, with surgically implanted smiles). The ones that bugged me most of all, however (and don't ask me why I don't like jugglers :D ), were the plate spinners. Here's one:
Plate spinner.jpg
Pension building Plate Spinner.

If you're one of those people who hops from project to project, without completely finishing the last one- and you live in a 99% complete world, then, you'll understand why I used to have nightmares about Plate Spinners when I was a kid. It's a symbol for too many choices and things to do, with not enough time.>:< :lolno:
I have nearly finished the Tamiya Panzer IV, The Tamiya Panther, the Comet, and the Cromwell but now I'm spinning another plate: the Tamiya Jagdpanther. :/ :/
I bought this Static version some little while ago, on the basis that it would soon be deleted by Tamiya. I won't give build details, as there are already a couple of Jagdpanther threads currently active (Sevoblast and Pitstain). What's more, there are a couple of Panther builds in the archive.
Here's what you get in the competitively priced display kit:
Tamiya Jagdpanther-Static. B.jpeg
Tamiya Jagdpanther box-display version

Tamiya Jagdpanther-static-contents C.jpeg
Contents of Tamiya Jagdpanther display model

Given the price of the display model, with a bit of judicious shopping around for the internals, it should be possible to build the Full-Option offering, without taking on a second job washing dishes. :think:
Well, that's the theory, anyway.
It didn't quite work out with the Pz IV, which was entirely built from online spares (mostly sourced from 'Axel's...') and donations. :problem:
Lately, though, I was able to get the DMD-MF-04 and DMD T-03 units it needs at half prive (brand new). That's already a massive saving on the eye-wateringly prived full-option kit.
I've also acquired most of the bits for the internal real estate, as well: elevation motor, recoil, and so on. Rotation's not realy needed. :D
I build the kit in a couple of days and, like my other Tamiyas, it has been primed and painted in Tamiya Dunkelgelb, awaiting (the plate spinning) unit markings, camo and (mild) weathering.
Right now, it looks like this:
Tamiya Jagdpanther-pic A.jpeg
Tamiya Jagpanther-pic A

Image
As per normal, do click to ENLARGE smaller pics. :thumbup:
Last edited by 43rdRecceReg on Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:47 am

Some more pics:
Tamiya Jagdpanther-pic B.jpeg
Tamiya Jagdpanther-pic B

Image
The battery of smoke grenades in the background is actually my spice rack. :lolno:
The sprocket on the counter is a hint at the main desideratum for the JP: a drive system. More on that presently.
The kits include some really neat photo-etched grills for the engine deck furniture (fan etc...)
...and here they are:
Image
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:19 am

One hatch is openable, but I see that ETOarmor have an alarmingly alluring array of upgrades for the TJP (alarming, because here's a further drain on my pension and time: both of which are in short supply :| )
https://etoarmor.com/?product_cat=jagdpanther
Tamiya Jagdpanther-pic C.jpeg
Tamiya Jagdpanther-Commander's hatch

Image

Here's the pic of the internal real estate. The plate for the DMDs was only a few Euros from Axel's, and isn't included in the kit. I also have a speaker on order. Since the speaker also acts as the upper hull retaining point, I thought it better to go with buying it instead of looking for an alternative. :think:
Tamiya Jagdpanther-pic E-interior.jpeg
Tamiya Jagdpanther hull real estate

Image
The gearbox sitting there has the kit-supplied standoffs fitted to it. It's perfectly aligned with the chassis. Unfortunately, and annoyingly, this box is for another model. I've found that most Tamiya gearboxes are in fact identical with the exception of standoff heights, and types, and the final drive shaft length. This one's way too short, and was adapted for another purpose by a friend, and member- and now it won't fit anything.
Och well. If only Tamiya did replacement final drives >:< !
I've even considered trying to make my own final drive shaft; but for that, I'd need a lathe and some high grade steel. :thumbdown:
The display model shafts are not keyed flat on the ends to engage with the final drive gear. They just spin around uselessly, like plates.
Image
Thus far then, the only real challenge is centred on the gearboxes.
ETO do beautiful bespoke boxes for the tamiya- but at bespoke prices (then there's the Customs crows to feed)
https://etoarmor.com/?product=s03-eto-h ... ansmission
I assume these work with Tamiya ECUs (DMDs).
An alternative- one of these eye-openers:
https://www.modellspiegel.com
Perhaps they're from the same source as the ETO units. Nonetheless, these could be a cheaper option. There's no mention of DMD compatibility, but again, I'm assuming they'll work.
Then again, I could try to source used Panther boxes from somewhere. :think:
This is where the plates are beginning to slow down, ominously :O
:D
Last edited by 43rdRecceReg on Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ruben2005 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:54 am

:wave: Hi there these boxes will work with tamiya DMDs https://www.modellspiegel.com . i have them in my kt but had to change the speaker box. :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:59 am

ruben2005 wrote::wave: Hi there these boxes will work with tamiya DMDs https://www.modellspiegel.com . i have them in my kt but had to change the speaker box. :thumbup: :thumbup:

Were these the 'CR35' motors? It's not clear which would fit the bill. What did you opt for?
At the same time, do the supplied output shafts work with the Tamiya-supplied sprockets and drivetain?
Cheers :thumbup:

edit: I should add, at this point, that although some would say that Tamiya has not made a lot of progress in updating its models, innovating, and bringing new models to market- Tamiya still makes the best precision
suspension systems out there.
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Postby ruben2005 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:16 pm

:wave: HI i went with the standard motors which are longer thats why i had to change the speaker if you send him a msg im sure he can tell you more about the CR35 but i can tell you that the shafts work with tamiya sprockets and the drive is so smooth as my kt has metal tracks and this gearbox at the front of the tank and goes through long grass no problem and fitting is easy just put the gearbox on the plates and i think you drill 2 holes but i did fit mine a while ago but they are a worth while upgrade. :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Postby ronnie42 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:54 pm

Tamiya sell the display models cheap. They hope people will think lets make it RC then the money rolls in :haha:

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Postby PainlessWolf » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:28 pm

Good Morning, Roy,
When I built Mike's Tiger 1, it was a Static Kit that was converted into RC. There was a lot of fun, following two build manuals and ensuring that all the of the replacement electronics worked. ( We went with an IBU2 and a set of those ETO gearboxes. ) and it was quite an adventure getting everything put together and detailed. Worth it tho' in the end. When you do a conversion like that, it really expands your knowledge of How-To 'do a build'. Following along!
regards,
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:24 pm

Ruben- Thanks for the useful input. Those motors must be very long, if you were forced to ditch the speaker in a chassis the length of the KT :| Couldn't the DMDs and batteries be fitted crosswise, instead of the traditional lengthwise orientation? Hmm., I must do some measuring.

Ronnie- Thanks for the cynicism. :D Pricing has always been a major beef with Tamiya, as has the availability of spares at a reasonable price. Then again, 'reasonable price ' and 'Tamiya' are polar opposites.
Still (and I would describe myself as an enlightened pessimist), even if I were able to obtain Tamiya's JP motors at the absurd price they're advertised at (double the price of the Tiger 1 version), I'd still be paying significantly less than the king's ransom needed for the Full-Option kit. Right now, they're not available anyway; but, frustratingly, if I had suitable final drive shafts I could use the boxes I have, and save 100s of Euros >:< Looks like the ETO or Modellspiegel options are better value for money.

Painless- Yes, I remember well your well-received Tiger 1 static to full-option thread. It made for a pleasant evening's study. :thumbup: Also, lessons learned there, from those following the thread, are readily transferrable to other Tamiya projects.

Eastern F...- There's no stauncher defender of Tamiya tanks on the forum than your good self; come Hell or High water. :thumbup: Long may it be so. :D
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:59 pm

Finding a recoil unit for the Static version was harder than I supposed, but luckily me, Rad had removed one from his KT and was prepared to part with it. :thumbup: he also supplied some Finnish Hakaristi (Swastikas) templates for my Tamiya Finnish Pz IV project. Well done, that man :D :thumbup:
Six models from Tamiya's 1/16 tank range use the same recoil unit; but the Jagdpanther uses the same unit as the King Tiger:
Image
Here you can see how much larger the JP/KT unit is, compared with that fitted to the Pz IV/Sherman etc.,
Rad wanted to know the length of recoil travel on the unit. An internal measurement suggests 34-35 mm. However, I used a pencil to trace a line on my Tammy KT barrel as the gun fired. Here's the result:
Tamiya JP andKT barrel travel length.jpeg
Tamiya KT barrel recoil length-traced with pencil

I got 33.38mm to 34 mm after several attempts. So, I guess 34mm is about right for anyone who's nerdish enough to want to know.

Here's what the static/display model looks like internally in the upper hull. The elevation motor has been fitted, however, all you would see normally is the gun counterweight, that stands in for the gun recoil unit.
Image
Tamiya JP-static model counterweight.jpeg
Tamiya JP static version- gun counterweight
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:16 pm

Now that the relatively inexpensive extras (below) have arrived from Axels and Rad, I can begin kitting the Upper Hull out.
Image
Curiously, the Jagdpanther uses two elevation motors. One is for gun rotation, and the other- obviously- for gun elevation. :)
Tamiya JP-Elevation Motor fitted-pic F.jpeg
Tamiya JP-Elevation and Recoil motors fitted

Image
Next, the rotation motor goes in- and it's something of a tricky fit for those with gherkin fingers (that also creak :/ )
Image

I still need to source the two return springs needed for the elevation and rotation motors; but after this parts binge, the upper hull is pretty well complete. I have both DMD units (bought at sale prices), and so the build is going well under the budget I would have needed for the Full-option version. :think: :)
Tamiya JP-Elevation Motor fitted-pic F.jpeg
Tamiya JP-Elevation and Recoil motors fitted

So far, so good. :thumbup:
Here's the barebones JP with a provisional coat of Tamya Dunkelgelb. This model may eventually get zimmerit.
Image
Biggest desideratum now remains the motors/ gearboxes. However, I'm pretty set on saving up for the ETO type. :thumbup: Looks like the glued togther piggy bank is up for another smashing; but that won't be until Spring. :problem:
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Postby Rad_Schuhart » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:20 pm

Hey, glad to see the part arrived safe and sound and now they are in place. And also thanks for measuring it for me.

I did not know you also needed the elevation unit, arms and so on, I also had all of that! We are designing a 2 in 1 unit servo elevation and recoil, so the elevation unit wont be needed neither. I also have a metal elevation arm!

For next time we know, lol
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:06 pm

Rad_Schuhart wrote:Hey, glad to see the part arrived safe and sound and now they are in place. And also thanks for measuring it for me.

I did not know you also needed the elevation unit, arms and so on, I also had all of that! We are designing a 2 in 1 unit servo elevation and recoil, so the elevation unit wont be needed neither. I also have a metal elevation arm!

For next time we know, lol


Thanks again, Rad :clap: As it happens, the other gun motors aren't that expensive. However, if you do happen to have the two springs fro the elevation and rotation units, I'd be very grateful. I guess you might need them for your alternate arrangement. They're not sold separately, unlike the bronze knuckle joints, plastic arms etc.,
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Postby Rad_Schuhart » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:55 pm

Yes, I do have the spring, and nope, I won't need it!

One of the main reasons for my servo recoil and elevation idea was just to get rid of that spring and the cannon jigling. At this very moment I cannot send you the spring on my PIV because then I would be with no working tanks, but as soon as I have at least one of the tanks running with the new servo system, I could send you both springs for free.
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:29 am

Rad_Schuhart wrote:Yes, I do have the spring, and nope, I won't need it!

One of the main reasons for my servo recoil and elevation idea was just to get rid of that spring and the cannon jigling. At this very moment I cannot send you the spring on my PIV because then I would be with no working tanks, but as soon as I have at least one of the tanks running with the new servo system, I could send you both springs for free.



Thanks, Rad :thumbup: I would have thought that with the PA (Public Address) quality of your tank sound systems, and the vast array of samples, that the irritating 'jiggling' sounds would have been drowned out. :think: :)
I think you must have super-sensitive hearing. :D Still, I won't complain if I end up being the beneficiary of that sonic niggle. :thumbup:
Also, given the number of plates I have spinning at the moment (Tamiya Pz IV, StuG IV, Tamiya Tiger 1, Cromwell, and Comet)- haste is not a factor. :D So, no worries, to use a modern idiom.
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Postby Rad_Schuhart » Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:38 am

43rdRecceReg wrote:
Thanks, Rad :thumbup: I would have thought that with the PA (Public Address) quality of your tank sound systems, and the vast array of samples, that the irritating 'jiggling' sounds would have been drowned out. :think: :)
I think you must have super-sensitive hearing. :D Still, I won't complain if I end up being the beneficiary of that sonic niggle. :thumbup:
Also, given the number of plates I have spinning at the moment (Tamiya Pz IV, StuG IV, Tamiya Tiger 1, Cromwell, and Comet)- haste is not a factor. :D So, no worries, to use a modern idiom.


Lol, it is not about the sound, but the barrel moving! When driving over non-flat terrains, the barrel moves up and down specially in the king tiger, I find it quite irritating.

The elevation motor is also slow and weak, so I am not happy with it neither. Hence my need of upgrading it with metal servos.

Ill update you as soon as those springs are ready, but not sure about the time! Plan is to have the king tiger working along this month and then to start with the panzer IV.
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:02 pm

Rad_Schuhart wrote:
43rdRecceReg wrote:
Thanks, Rad :thumbup: I would have thought that with the PA (Public Address) quality of your tank sound systems, and the vast array of samples, that the irritating 'jiggling' sounds would have been drowned out. :think: :)
I think you must have super-sensitive hearing. :D Still, I won't complain if I end up being the beneficiary of that sonic niggle. :thumbup:
Also, given the number of plates I have spinning at the moment (Tamiya Pz IV, StuG IV, Tamiya Tiger 1, Cromwell, and Comet)- haste is not a factor. :D So, no worries, to use a modern idiom.


Lol, it is not about the sound, but the barrel moving! When driving over non-flat terrains, the barrel moves up and down specially in the king tiger, I find it quite irritating.

The elevation motor is also slow and weak, so I am not happy with it neither. Hence my need of upgrading it with metal servos.

Ill update you as soon as those springs are ready, but not sure about the time! Plan is to have the king tiger working along this month and then to start with the panzer IV.

Ahhhh...I see. It's really a case of barrel wobble then. There are a couple of threads I can recall on that subject. Careful placement of foam seemed to bring partial success:
viewtopic.php?f=195&t=22551&p=206000&hilit=barrel+wobble#p206000
viewtopic.php?f=195&t=24637&hilit=barrel+wobble.
viewtopic.php?f=117&t=18174&p=159012&hilit=Barrel+wobble&sid=69e4413b692ad29adc1cd94650c575f2#p159012
Would it be possible to adapt a gun stabilisation system (like the one for the Leopard) to solve the KT wobble?
I shall look forward to seeing your own solution in action, Rad :thumbup:
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Postby Rad_Schuhart » Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:14 pm

Yes, barrel wobble, which is horrible in the case of the King Tiger. A friend fitted a metal muzle brake on the barrel, and he said he had to remove it immediatelly, because the wobble was way worse and the elevation too weak.

Our idea (I am designing it with a friend. Well, better said, my friend is designing it, I just keep giving him ideas/opinions) will be a part that will bolt where the king tiger recoil mounting plate is bolted. That part will have the servo for recoiling, and the servo for elevation. The elevation will have a push rod where the elevation motor mounts.

There are many advantages with servos, for mentioning some, much better and fast control of elevation (critic for those who battle), no wobbling, precise adjustment of recoil (very fast recoil, slow going back to the original position) and some more.

Of course when using servos it is very easy to install a gun stabilization system. I am not going to do it on the WW2 tanks, but now that you gave me the idea, I might add it to my never ending T54 build... More things to the "to do things" list. Lol. That will be long term though. I dont want to end with plate spinnings too, lol.
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Postby pitstain » Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:09 pm

etoarmor.com still has one or two of Daryl Turner's metal jagdpanther trunion kits in stock from the last run, it's supposed to be the bee's knees for solving the issues on the Jagd
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:04 am

pitstain wrote:etoarmor.com still has one or two of Daryl Turner's metal jagdpanther trunion kits in stock from the last run, it's supposed to be the bee's knees for solving the issues on the Jagd


Yes, I think that was the unit starring in Sevoblast's Jadgpanther upgrade:
Daryl's Gun trunnion.jpg
Daryl's Gun Trunnion Modification
Daryl's Gun trunnion.jpg (19.33 KiB) Viewed 877 times

I think that Adam (Ad Lav) also used this top-notch component in his highly desirable Jagdpanther upgrade. :thumbup:
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