Calling All Panther G Experts: Historical Accuracy Questions

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Postby EAO » Wed May 19, 2021 6:40 pm

Hello Gents,

I have been a very, good boy for the duration of this Pandemic thing. Our business circling the drain made any extra purchases impossible. I just rolled my sports car out of the garage last Friday, after letting it sit for all of last year's driving season due to this dearth of money. I've also been smoking the cheapest, hand rolled cigars I could find. :/ I've almost got the Wife convinced to allow me to have another RC tank, as our business is finally picking up again.

I've had a love affair with the Panther G forever. I've decided that this will probably be my next tank; however, I do have some questions for the Pro's out there. So after researching all my books, this Forum, and the internet, I have these questions remaining. From what I could find the G was built from mid '43 to the final end of the war. I'm fascinated with the "Ambush" camo schemes, and would like to use one from the Eastern Front in Oct. of '44. I know that in mid Aug. of '44 the order for "Ambush" camo patterns to be applied at the factories went out. I believe it applied to MAN, DB, and MNH. I also have a love of Zimmerit. I know that in early Sept. of '44 the order went out to stop applying the covering. Has anyone seen historical evidence of a Zimmerit covered G with the "Ambush" camo scheme? Of course, this would be a G with the "dished", rubber rimmed road wheels like on the early, and mid Tiger 1's (I'm not sure when the Panther started showing up with the late war, all metal road wheels). If the camo pattern and Zimmerit were possible at the same time, what pattern would the Zimmerit have been applied as?

I also love the look of extra road wheels carried on either the rear hull sides, or the sides of the turret of the Panther. I know the Panzer Lehr Division was fond of kitting their Panther's out like this. I have seen photographic evidence of one or two road wheels on either side of the rear hull, along with photos of one or two on the turret sides. Has anyone seen a combination of turret and hull mounted road wheels in any number or combination? In this same matter, I've seen road wheels and even spare track links over sprayed with whatever camo pattern the tank wore. I'm assuming this was probably done in the field? If the tank was painted fully at the factory, would the road wheels (in particular) be painted to blend into the "Ambush" camo, or wear the attractive red, oxide primer? There maybe no hard and fast rules to this area, but any ideas on it would be great.

Finally, a big thanks goes out to our own Tom Hugill for allowing me to use his beautiful Panther G to help illustrate what I'll be talking about next. :thumbup: :wave: I know that in May of '44 the Panther exhaust was changed to eliminate the extra pipe of the A model. I also know that the purpose built flame suppressor was implemented in Oct. '44. I guessing Tom's picture would be displaying the temporary, sheet metal covers that started in appearing in June of '44?

Oh, and one more thing! :/ Has anyone seen an MG42 mounted on a Panther for AA defense? I've only seen pictures of MG34's? At one point, some website claimed they only used 34's due to lower amounts of ammo expended and easier barrel changes!?! :wtf:

So, in essence, could one have a Panther G wearing "Ambush" camo pattern, with the huge curved exhaust coverings, with Zimmerit, and any combination of road wheels on the rear hull and turret, with a MG42? And what color would these said extra road wheels be? Any questions? :crazy: :wtf: :think:

As I've said, this project may happen! If it does, it won't be 100% accurate like you "historical purists" pull off all the time (I avoid the use of the term "rivet counters" as I find it slightly derogatory and I'm in awe of your skills and workmanship). But alas, it is not for me. Even as a child building static kits, I've never been able to do one "like the picture on the box". There was always something I would change to make it "my own". A different tactical symbol, combination of numbers, etc. Don't know why, but I've always thought it would look cooler if just tweaked a little. But I have found that holding my breath and stomping my feet has slowly worn down my Wife, this much is for certain! Just don't try holding your breath while puffing on a "big dog log" as you can black out and end up on the kitchen floor!

Many thanks in advance Guys.

Cheers,
Eric.
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Panther G with large exhaust pipes..jpg
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Postby Rad_Schuhart » Wed May 19, 2021 6:45 pm

My tip is always the same: Build something that makes you happy.

If you want a Panther with zimmerit, ambush scheme and a MG42, just build it.

Nobody can proof it did not exist anyway.
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Postby john1970 » Wed May 19, 2021 6:55 pm

Build what you want and if anyone asks it was updated in the field

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Postby jarndice » Wed May 19, 2021 6:57 pm

So much German armour in the latter stages of that particular unpleasantness were parts bin specials,
If the Forward workshop had a replacement part and it fitted thats what would be bolted/welded on so like Rad said It's your Tank,
Make it yours because whatever you do with it' it was probably built anyway.
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Postby HERMAN BIX » Wed May 19, 2021 8:54 pm

Go with this theory:

Early G hull ( Zimmerit) with a replacement late G turret ( chin mantlet)-no Zim-ambush pattern)
The early G hull has the single pipe tin covered exhaust, but you could go with the hooded ones as part of the turret replacement job.
I would stick with the MG 34 in the armoured cover though, the ‘42 was only a pintle mount on the rear of Jagdtigers and on the half track series .
That said, if a ‘42 was what was available, why not !
As to the spare road wheels, for sure get them on.
I’ve seen pics of turret and flank mounted wheels, so nothing is off limits there.

Like the others have said, your tank your way and pictures along the way for us !! :D
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Postby Jofaur86 » Wed May 19, 2021 9:09 pm

Hello :D
here is a link, with 123 period photos and different Panther Type, hope this will bring you some ideas for your realization
https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery ... r-rome-44/

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Postby Exhibitedbrute » Wed May 19, 2021 9:11 pm

As I say at the bottom of every post, I can’t remember now see below

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Postby Tiger6 » Wed May 19, 2021 9:40 pm

MG34's were issued because of the way the barrel is removed from the rear vs from the side on the MG 42 - there are a few videos on youtube demonstrating this. MG's used on the cupola AA mount were dismounted from the coax position in the mantlet, rather than additional issued guns per the western allied practice.
phpBB [video]


According to Roddy McDougall and Martin Block's book 'Panther - External Appearance and Design Changes' (Anyone interested in Panthers should consider getting it, it really is an excellent resource), The 3 colour factory scheme was used by all 3 manufacturers involved in the Panther G, each had their own unique pattern, which also evolved over time - it is possible to tell the manufacturer and date simply by the paint scheme in a lot of cases after August 1944.

Road wheels were painted on their own in a single colour (brown, green or yellow), and then randomly fitted as they hit the assembly track. They were not sprayed with a camouflage pattern as this provided a visual aid to enemy gunners to estimate the speed of the tank.

Taking a cursory look at the rest of that book, spare wheels on the rear quarters of the turret shows up from Dec 1944 on Daimler built tanks only - I'm not seeing a whole lot of examples with empty spare wheel brackets either? - But then again the book focus's on Factory mods, not individual unit preferences, so perhaps that's not so surprising.

Ambush on Zimmerit is depicted in the book on an MNH built example, done using the disk stencil method. Several were noted to be with units involved in the Lorraine fighting in Sept 1944. Sadly I don't have many ref photo's from the Eastern front, I guess the authors had better access (or better quality) to the US archives and personal collections in western countries.

These would have the earlier bare tail pipe with the sheet metal cover, rather than the flame suppressing ones on Tom's Panther above. Not a great picture, but here's my effort - basically a couple of pipes from a Pantiger (Daimler and MNH used the forged elbow much earlier than than the fabricated one found on the HL Panther G, which was still being used by MAN much later into 1944), with simple shields made from copper sheet rolled around an Exacto knife handle:
IMG_20180909_141743.jpg


Let me know if you want me to dig in a little further for something specific.
Last edited by Tiger6 on Wed May 19, 2021 10:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Jofaur86 » Wed May 19, 2021 9:50 pm

YouTube
Inside Saumur’S Panther Tank

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Postby Jofaur86 » Wed May 19, 2021 9:53 pm


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Postby STHV » Thu May 20, 2021 12:24 am

Here is an Ambush camo Panther G with Zimmerit
Image

Ambush camo was first applied 19th August 1944. Zimmerit stopped being applied on 7th September 1944 and later in September a small batch of MAN Panthers were fitted with the steel tired roadwheels so i don't think the two would have coincided and I cannot find any images or references of any steel wheel Panthers with zimmerit
The extra roadwheels were almost entirely down to the crew/unit etc so unless you are doing a specific vehicle go nuts basically
The road wheels would have been painted in single colours of RAL 7028 Dark yellow, RAL 8017 red-brown and RAL 6003 Olive-green
I can only find mounted MG42's on halftracks so i doubt any would have been mounted on a tank as the AA machine guns were typically cross compatible with the coaxial or bow machine guns
The curved exhaust hoods where introduced in late January 1945, the flame mufflers were introduced in October 1944
You would also have to replace the Idler wheel with the earlier version as the self cleaning idler was introduced in October 1944

If you want to get this Panther as accurate as possible get a copy of Panzer Tracts 5-3, it has tons of diagrams for all the external components and has a section going through when modifications were added
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Postby Tiger6 » Thu May 20, 2021 12:31 am

^ That's one of the photos of the MHN Panthers I was looking at. You can see the disk pattern quite clearly around the turret and between the exhaust stacks.

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Postby Herr Dr. Professor » Thu May 20, 2021 1:10 am

:D Wow, Eric, you started an edumacational thread here. It’s your Panther G, so go with your own desires. To me, it’s the learning that counts: make it unique or historically impeccable. Either way in the end you get bragging rights about what you know is accurate or inaccurate. :D
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Postby HERMAN BIX » Thu May 20, 2021 2:33 am

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/media/a-k ... 29910/full

Heres a G with a Zim turret and none on the hull...............a repair job prior to BOTB perhaps ?
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Postby Tiger6 » Thu May 20, 2021 9:44 am

No, that came direct from the factory like that. The Turret shells had zimmerit applied prior to assembly to the hull, and they had more turrets done than hulls when the order came to stop.
The Duel in the Mist series documents 3 or 4 Panthers of 1st SS Pz Div with zimmerit on the turret only during the battle of the bulge, all newly built, from a mixture of MAN, MNH and Daimler (This particular one is a Befehlspanther, produced by MAN - identifiable by the serial number on the Glacis plate).

Roddy MacDougall and Martin Block's book states that there was very little in the way of factory rebuilds done, the German system simply did not produce significant quantities of spare parts with which to fix them - all available parts were used to build new tanks. Off the top of my head, they state only about 180 tanks total were returned to MAN for rebuild, but progress was very slow.

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Postby HERMAN BIX » Thu May 20, 2021 10:25 am

So that gives the loophole to have a turret with Zim on a hull without Zim, but perhaps with later exhausts, spare roadwheels where was convenient for the crew, and a Hinterhalt camo paint job on some of it at least, if not all........ :think:

Just build it Mr EAO, as you can see, there is sufficient historical 'fog' so as to allow you to build a tank you want(and I can see the want) without concern for judgement of historic plausibility.............Hells Bells, I did a Panther with Rockets hanging off the sides of it, just to see if it COULD have worked 8O
If I got any flak over that concept at the time I would have told them to bash it in their clacker :eh:

Get on with it mate & please keep us all in on the caper while you do ;)

Can't wait :thumbup:
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Postby HERMAN BIX » Thu May 20, 2021 10:28 am

[quote="STHV"]Here is an Ambush camo Panther G with Zimmerit
Image

Lovely picture...................a better back end than Giselle Bundschen :shh:
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Postby Biasphere1 » Thu May 20, 2021 12:24 pm

Yo EAO join the game War Thunder and have a look at this tank in the German tree and you'll be amazed at the accuracy of their models.
Ambush camo can be seen in the (google) Hinterhalt-Tarnung camo here is something from another site .https://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx? ... e%20canopy.

There's heaps of stuff there on the google.You'll see real tanks to as a to go by thing.

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Postby STHV » Thu May 20, 2021 3:21 pm

Biasphere1 wrote:Yo EAO join the game War Thunder and have a look at this tank in the German tree and you'll be amazed at the accuracy of their models.
Ambush camo can be seen in the (google) Hinterhalt-Tarnung camo here is something from another site .https://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx? ... e%20canopy.

There's heaps of stuff there on the google.You'll see real tanks to as a to go by thing.


The war thunder models are awful, the only accurate one is the Ersatz M10. I have even recently submitted a bug report just on the Ausf D and that alone took ages because of how much is wrong
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Postby Biasphere1 » Thu May 20, 2021 3:33 pm

STHV wrote:
Biasphere1 wrote:Yo EAO join the game War Thunder and have a look at this tank in the German tree and you'll be amazed at the accuracy of their models.
Ambush camo can be seen in the (google) Hinterhalt-Tarnung camo here is something from another site .https://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx? ... e%20canopy.

There's heaps of stuff there on the google.You'll see real tanks to as a to go by thing.


The war thunder models are awful, the only accurate one is the Ersatz M10. I have even recently submitted a bug report just on the Ausf D and that alone took ages because of how much is wrong


They can't be too bad as many of the best 3D tank files are made from them time and again . There camo's are technically very correct as well. A great source for what the OP is after.
Remember the War Thunder people mapped and measured most every tank left on Earth to get their files and have access to most every historic technical manual on the subject as well so technically they're dam close.
Last edited by Biasphere1 on Thu May 20, 2021 3:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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