FIREFLY? WHAT HAVE i GOT HERE?

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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:57 am

HERMAN BIX wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5TqD5xf0ic

I feel like that guy !!

See, its damn "Sherm-ick Cubes" options & combinations that put me off building one :/ :haha:
I guess I could live with a stick a radio box and a barrel on it & call it done ..................

Hahaha :haha:
Yep, so much to take in Herman.
I have been collecting the parts to make one of each of the three fireflies, plus other lend lease Sherman's us Brits and our commonwealth friends used on the Western front. Taken me ages and cost a small fortune. Hopefully I can do them justice.
I'd quite happily send you that Tamiya engine deck back along with a pair of Nick's resin small hatches if you'd like.
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Postby HERMAN BIX » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:31 am

Nah mate, Im way to "decompressed" to care about the Highs/Lows and Big/Small ,fractional degree glacis angles of Shermans to be bothered !!

Will swap for what have you ;) no money changes hands.

Sorry General Alpha, the dream is never happening :lolno:
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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:36 am

That will cost a bit to post to the UK.

But I may have access to something you'd like :think:
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Postby HERMAN BIX » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:42 am

Son of a gun-ner wrote:That will cost a bit to post to the UK.

But I may have access to something you'd like :think:


And that right there is the language I talk !

Lets take it off-line & see
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:39 pm

Son of a gun-ner wrote:Roy, you say the M4 Ic came with a mix of high and low bustle turrets. Sorry, the M4 came with a mix of both, but the Ic (meaning Sherman one with a 17 pounder gun) only came with low bustle.
There are no photos of a firefly with a high bustle turret. Just like there are no photos of a Sherman 2 (M4A1 cast) with a 17 pounder in Europe.


I say a mix, Mick, because the M4 ICs were predominantly of the hooded small hatch type (prior to the big hatch 47deg glacis models, and the high bustle turrets), and there was not an issue of hatch clearance with them- and therefore a need for a higher bustle. From what I've read, the Brits would have been supplied with a mix of low (then high), and even recycled turrets for conversion to Firefly' status.
Here's an observation from Armorama, for example:
"...The high bustle turret began to replace the low bustle turret on Shermans with the change over to the large hatch 47 degree hull and there was an issue of hatch clearance. Its use on fireflies seems top have been limited to the hybrid Ic though in most photos it is hard to distinguish and it may have been used on some Firefly VC’c..."
Equally, some of the photos on turret development found on the amazing Sherman Minutiae website, the difference between the tow types is not always clear...but then again, my visist to Specsavers is long overdue, thanks to Covid.. :problem:
Image...High bustle
Image...Low bustle.

In the end, I don't think it's worth worrying about, unless you're making models for a museum.

Given the reluctance of the Americans to supply the Brits with their own favoured M4A3, I wouldn't be surprised if British Firefly adaptors took whatever turrets the US had spare, low and high. They took the M4A4, for example, which was practically a US reject. ;) When the original companies manufacturing Sherman variants were rediced to three, there must have been a lot of dated stock left over.

The point I'm trying to make, however, is that it's possible to make an 'acceptable' Firefly out of available M4A3 models, and M4A1 models, without incurring the bizarre, and neurotic, ire of ultra rivet counters. :haha: the M4 IC should be do-able from existing RTR models, supported by some medium level scratch build skills.
All it takes, is one precedent. I've even seen a pic of a Firely 17-Pounder turret mounted on an American M4A3 hull. It was used at the Aberdeen proving grounds to test the gun out. So, a model based on this example wouldn't cross that threshold we've seen of deeming a M4A3 (75 or 105) model a 'Firefly, simply by the inclusion of a 17-pdr barrel and a resin radio box (as per a well-known, and now well-respected tank vendor :shh: ). It should have the right turret (pretty much); with radio box; VVSS; 17-pdr gun and mantlet; pre-all vision commander's cupola (don't know of any examples of Fireflies with the all-round cupola), a rear storage box- and a Brit or Canadian commander.
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:54 pm

Tiger6 wrote:
43rdRecceReg wrote:though the majority of Vc (M4A4) Fireflies had high bustle turrets.


Again this rubbish.



Hardly constructive, or friendly. :| This makes you appear bumptious, but I'm sure you're not. :problem:
The stuff I've posted here is for discussion, and in the spirit of sharing.
In all honesty, I don't purport to being a world authority on the Sherman. Indeed, no one here is, but pooling ideas can be fun- usually. :thumbup:
If HB wants a Firefly, a decent approximation is all that's needed.
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Postby Exhibitedbrute » Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:34 pm

HERMAN BIX wrote:Nah mate, Im way to "decompressed" to care about the Highs/Lows and Big/Small ,fractional degree glacis angles of Shermans to be bothered !!

Will swap for what have you ;) no money changes hands.

Sorry General Alpha, the dream is never happening :lolno:


Send it me I will build the firefly and send it back, I have most of the bits. Painting is up to you though

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Postby tomhugill » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:06 pm

dgsselkirk wrote:oh, oh.... :D
firefly high bustle.jpg


FYI Vandra and forgebear are out of kits and won't have anymore. I only have a couple left and am attempting to put together some more put prices just keep rising and rising. I have sold over 100 kits now so perhaps it has reached builders saturation point for now...


Ya beat me to it!
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:59 pm

I still have your kit, Dean- in partially assembled state. :D :thumbup:
What put me off a little, four years ago ,was the idea of sawing a pristine M4A3 into three, and using styrene to lengthen the hull to M4A4 proportions. I'm happier working with resin now, and fairly confident with any scratch building I tackle. So.......it's about time.
Still, I think I'm right in saying that your original resin hull is the same length as as the M4A3, and not lengthened to match an 'extended' M4A3 hull.
Instead, after immediate projects, I'm going to fit the upper hull to an M4A3 lower to make a notional M4 IC (Welded hull.) Firefly. I won't have to use the three piece gearbox cover either, though you made an excellent example.

Before dropping the 'bustle' question, where perhaps I should have researched a little deeper, here's another article that persuaded me there must have been quite a few High bustle Fireflies, from Missing-Lynx:
http://www.missing-lynx.com/reviews/britain/abm012.htm
Here the author says: "...

Armoured Brigade Models Late Production High Bustle Firefly Turret w/Oval Loader's Hatch ABM #012

Andrew Dextras

Although the majority of Sherman Fireflies were based on early 75mm Sherman turrets with a square loader’s hatch added by the workshops, a number of very late production Fireflies had turrets based on the much later 75mm high bustle design..."
Also, if the raised bustle became the turret norm in late 1943, all tanks and turrets delivered for conversion to Britain after that time, surely must have included some of the high bustle type. :think: But hey ho. One thing is certain, there weren't any Fireflies with the T23 type ('Easy') turret- so that really can't be used for a model conversion.
Last edited by 43rdRecceReg on Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dgsselkirk » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:04 am

When you lengthen the lower 20mm and you put the 3 part transmission on the front, and add my upper it sits and measures properly. You just have to trim down the back plate a little to accommodate the extra length. However, keep in mind the kit was designed for the average modeler who didn't want to get into cutting apart an HL lower hull. When you put it straight onto the HL lower you will notice an longer gap between the end of the upper and the back plate. Hope that makes sense... :D
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Postby john1970 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:00 am

dgsselkirk wrote:When you lengthen the lower 20mm and you put the 3 part transmission on the front, and add my upper it sits and measures properly. You just have to trim down the back plate a little to accommodate the extra length. However, keep in mind the kit was designed for the average modeler who didn't want to get into cutting apart an HL lower hull. When you put it straight onto the HL lower you will notice an longer gap between the end of the upper and the back plate. Hope that makes sense... :D



Are you planning an IC so the less than average modeller doesn't have to cut up the lower hull ?

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Postby HERMAN BIX » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:19 am

Exhibitedbrute wrote:
HERMAN BIX wrote:Nah mate, Im way to "decompressed" to care about the Highs/Lows and Big/Small ,fractional degree glacis angles of Shermans to be bothered !!

Will swap for what have you ;) no money changes hands.

Sorry General Alpha, the dream is never happening :lolno:


Send it me I will build the firefly and send it back, I have most of the bits. Painting is up to you though


That’s very nice of you to offer Mr Brute. I feel this will end up at Mr Gunners place as a swap for things he has .
Sorry to all for creating a controversy, as I recall, the General met his end over a similar discussion.
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Postby dgsselkirk » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:04 am

john1970 wrote:
dgsselkirk wrote:When you lengthen the lower 20mm and you put the 3 part transmission on the front, and add my upper it sits and measures properly. You just have to trim down the back plate a little to accommodate the extra length. However, keep in mind the kit was designed for the average modeler who didn't want to get into cutting apart an HL lower hull. When you put it straight onto the HL lower you will notice an longer gap between the end of the upper and the back plate. Hope that makes sense... :D



Are you planning an IC so the less than average modeller doesn't have to cut up the lower hull ?


No, sorry, not at this time...
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:41 am

Yes, HB, that's how the late 'General' got his marching orders. :problem:
It still amazes me that Sherman related topics often end of thorny. I don't get it. It's just a model making theme, after all. Personally, I'm no fan of the tank- despite the contribution it made. I'd rather research, and build, a Centurion or Comet (as I'm doing).But that's just my opinion. Chaque a son gout...
HB, here are some pics, purely for comparison purposes. There's a partially complete Firefly based on Dean's amazing work. It's certainly rich in detail and texture :thumbup: Next to it is the HL 105mm
If you wanted a Firefly with passable detail, you'd need a to cut a rectangular hatch in the HL turret, and dremel other bits off....and so forth. The split hatch cupola, is available in metal ( I got one from Forgebear, I think) Fabricating other bits from styrene and Milliput would certainly keep you busy. The battery box would be quite easy to make with styrene amd Meng nuts.... and so on. Of course, you already have the barrel. Sometime in the distant future, I intend to make a IC Firefly using most of Dean's kit, and this donor 105. It won't be a TOTM. But won't remain POTM (Parts of the Month) I'm sure you could do a bonzer job with one, but yes, you could expand Mick's growing emporium. For my part, the only aim to create lively debate. Hope the pics give you some idea of the potential task ahead. They were taken in poor light conditions, so lacking the crispness I like to aim for. :think:
Image
Image
Image
Last edited by 43rdRecceReg on Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Harry Serpent » Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:33 am

It does make a nice kit, when finished (I got some one to stretch the lower hull)

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