Were tank tools and spares the same colour as the tank?

If you have a tank query and you can't find the answer anywhere else, post here. (TIP - Check for answers in FAQ, use the 'search' facility or even check this board before posting here).

Postby 43rdRecceReg » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:52 pm

It crossed my mind the other day, that if many tanks were sprayed at regimental depots- and they were needed urgently at the front- would maintenance crews strip off all the tools, spare tracks, and tow cables before applying camouflage paint? :think:
In other words..were tank attachments the same colour as the tank?
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Postby 43rdRecceReg » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:34 am

Just been trawling the net on this theme, and found a thread on Finescale Modeler on roughly the same theme.. :)
http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_su ... 69201.aspx
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Postby jarndice » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:08 am

In the beginning our Platoon Austin Champs were issued in the factory Olive Green, they were cleaned by the driver with paraffin, :lolno: I don't recollect a time when they were repainted,
When they were withdrawn our Platoon Land Rovers would get a Matt Dark Green and Matt Black spray at least once a year But because we could get the word at any time they were painted with the bare minimum of preparation,
A spray over with Carbon Tetrachloride using an old pump action fire extinguisher to degrease them, then a rapid spray,
BUT the Platoon Sgt would eat anyone who did not remove all the loose and removable fixtures and fittings first.
So Tilt off, Spare wheel off, Seats out and all the tools off,
Then Clean and paint. then finish with dear old Pegasus front and rear and our Tac Number, And the very last job before refitting everything, some one with a steady hand painting the Tyre Pressure numbers on each wing.
I suggest that Platoon Sgts of every Army in the World would be just as persuasive as those in the British Army including German Armoured Companies of WW2.
Shaun.

jarndice
Captain
 
Posts: 4594
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:27 am
Location: the mountains of hertfordshire

Postby Estnische » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:04 am

An excellent question Roy! I was afraid to ask...
User avatar
Estnische
Corporal
 
Posts: 463
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:52 pm
Location: Wollongong, Australia

Postby 43rdRecceReg » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:44 pm

jarndice wrote:In the beginning our Platoon Austin Champs were issued in the factory Olive Green, they were cleaned by the driver with paraffin, :lolno: I don't recollect a time when they were repainted,
When they were withdrawn our Platoon Land Rovers would get a Matt Dark Green and Matt Black spray at least once a year But because we could get the word at any time they were painted with the bare minimum of preparation,
A spray over with Carbon Tetrachloride using an old pump action fire extinguisher to degrease them, then a rapid spray,
BUT the Platoon Sgt would eat anyone who did not remove all the loose and removable fixtures and fittings first.
So Tilt off, Spare wheel off, Seats out and all the tools off,
Then Clean and paint. then finish with dear old Pegasus front and rear and our Tac Number, And the very last job before refitting everything, some one with a steady hand painting the Tyre Pressure numbers on each wing.
I suggest that Platoon Sgts of every Army in the World would be just as persuasive as those in the British Army including German Armoured Companies of WW2.
Shaun.


Thanks for the personal insight, Shaun. :thumbup: The thing is, though, I'm really thinking about vehicles in a WW2 setting..often in pressured situations, or in modern speak 'logistically challenged' let's say :D .
As an avid follower of your personal military anecdotes, and experiences, I'd guessed that your period service probably began in the early 1960s. Do pardon me if I'm, woefully wide of the mark. If this is the case, then,
apart from decreasing role played by Britain as a World military policeman, we weren't involved in any major conflicts like the Korean War (which I can just about remember.. :/ :D ), or even the Suez debacle, and I think that peacetime maintenance requirements probably differed from those in Wartime. I imagine this caveat also applies to the other former major players in WW2, with the probable exception of the French, as they packed it in after only a few weeks...Vive la Vichy et Petain @) I could, of course be wrong :think: :D
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Postby 43rdRecceReg » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:48 pm

Hmm., I forgot to include this useful link to British camouflage schemes in WW2, although it doesn't directly address the question I posed.
http://www.mafva.net/other%20pages/starmer%20camo.htm
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Postby RobW » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:05 pm

I'd expect the initial colour to be shared by the vehicle & any brackets etc but not removable items. In the field might depend on how much time they had, and who was in charge.

RobW
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:55 pm
Location: Sheffield

Postby jarndice » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:08 pm

Roy One of the reasons we were not committed by Mr Wilson to helping our American cousins in Vietnam was because Indonesian Armed Forces invaded Borneo and we as part of our treaty commitments in concert with Malaysian, Australian and New Zealand Forces after a lot of aggravation including my own suffering after a botched night jump the combined forces threw out the Indonesians,
It sure seemed like a major conflict to us at the time and yet when I talk of it to friends and family I get blank looks,

Almost nobody remembers it.

To complicate matters while all that was going on the UKs drawdown from Aden was going on,
I lost my best friend in the Radfan (Up Country Yemen) John Baulcomb,
And the Battalion was in RAF Argosy's and Beverly's shuttling between the two locations.
The last of us were lifted off from the Governors lawn by Fleet Air Arm Wessex to a Carrier,
And while all this was going on apart from helping the local forces in Belize against the bullyboy tactics of Guatamala,
The Communists were still coming across the Thai border murdering and kidnapping along the Northern Malaysian Border long after the rest of the world thought that they were finished.
That was where the RAF and Malaysian Air Forces Scottish Aviation Twin Pioneer and British Army DHC 2s helped us to finally put the lid on that particular Pain.
Trust me it was a very busy time for an over committed British Army, Navy and Air force.
As to Vietnam I wish so much I could talk about it but the Official Secrets Act would have a number of friends in jail if I did.
Shaun.

jarndice
Captain
 
Posts: 4594
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:27 am
Location: the mountains of hertfordshire

Postby 43rdRecceReg » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:33 am

jarndice wrote:Roy One of the reasons we were not committed by Mr Wilson to helping our American cousins in Vietnam was because Indonesian Armed Forces invaded Borneo and we as part of our treaty commitments in concert with Malaysian, Australian and New Zealand Forces after a lot of aggravation including my own suffering after a botched night jump the combined forces threw out the Indonesians,
It sure seemed like a major conflict to us at the time and yet when I talk of it to friends and family I get blank looks,

Almost nobody remembers it.

To complicate matters while all that was going on the UKs drawdown from Aden was going on,
I lost my best friend in the Radfan (Up Country Yemen) John Baulcomb,
And the Battalion was in RAF Argosy's and Beverly's shuttling between the two locations.
The last of us were lifted off from the Governors lawn by Fleet Air Arm Wessex to a Carrier,
And while all this was going on apart from helping the local forces in Belize against the bullyboy tactics of Guatamala,
The Communists were still coming across the Thai border murdering and kidnapping along the Northern Malaysian Border long after the rest of the world thought that they were finished.
That was where the RAF and Malaysian Air Forces Scottish Aviation Twin Pioneer and British Army DHC 2s helped us to finally put the lid on that particular Pain.
Trust me it was a very busy time for an over committed British Army, Navy and Air force.
As to Vietnam I wish so much I could talk about it but the Official Secrets Act would have a number of friends in jail if I did.
Shaun.


I had a cousin who served in Aden, and another "virgin Soldier' cousin (nothing like Hywell Bennett :D ) who got a dose of Malaria in the Malayan 'Emergency'. I guess 'Emergency' was a euphemism for 'War', and by being called an 'emergency' it operated by different rules. When you say that 'blank looks' accompanied any discussion of involvement in these conflicts; it doesn't surprise me one jot. Twas ever thus when soldiers returned home with 1000 yd stares, PTSD, wounds too gruesome to look at, and so on. The cousin who saw action in Indonesia, suffered so badly from malaria that he hanged himself from a lamppost in 1960. I guess, the blank looks were the final straw.
I recall wondering what these conflicts were all about at the time, as there were no obvious 'goodies and baddies' as in the Great War, and WW2. Luckily for me, I was the youngest son of the youngest son, and missed National Service by a few years. However, I got blank looks in later life by simply being me :lolno:
Last edited by 43rdRecceReg on Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Postby Max-U52 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:49 am

Sounds to me like Malayan "Emergency" is kinda like Korean "Conflict". There's that common language again. Bet they both seemed a lot like "War" to the poor slobs in the mud.

If it's any consolation, Roy, even though you can't see them through the computer, you still get plenty of blank looks from me just for being you. I usually just scratch my head and say, "Hmmm. Highlanders." 8) :haha: :/
User avatar
Max-U52
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2522
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:56 pm
Location: Detroit

Postby 43rdRecceReg » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:10 am

Max-U52 wrote:Sounds to me like Malayan "Emergency" is kinda like Korean "Conflict". There's that common language again. Bet they both seemed a lot like "War" to the poor slobs in the mud.

If it's any consolation, Roy, even though you can't see them through the computer, you still get plenty of blank looks from me just for being you. I usually just scratch my head and say, "Hmmm. Highlanders." 8) :haha: :/

8) 8| :D
Highlanders? I have a theory that the Vikings and Highlanders get hyperactive in Summer, because of light deprivation in Winter (probably true of Alaskans too, but they're new to it....where we've had 1000s of years to evolve our own brand of mania).... ;)
Coming down to Earth for a moment, though, I noticed that many of the tanks on display at the former Aberdeen (not to be confused with our) Proving Ground have the tools painted the same colour as the tank, or is this just my Spring mania kicking in? :haha:
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Postby jarndice » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:37 am

I couldn't help wondering about the date of your Cousins untimely passing because the Indonesian Confrontation kicked off in the mid 60s,
Perhaps his suffering was caused by the Malayan Communist emergency that was primarily in the 50s although it kept going into the 60s long after the wider world thought it had ended,
My Uncle Tony who was called up in the mid 50s and served with the Suffolk Regt and was in the Malayan Peninsula at the time gave me some insight as to what to expect when I went to Borneo a few years later.
His advice "LOOK UP" was something that was never mentioned in my training but it probably saved my worthless neck more than once.
Gary is quite right call it what you like any euphemism is still WAR and whatever you call it friends as well as innocents as well as the "Enemy" all suffer,
As with your cousin whatever kind of person you were before you were involved in the filth and terror of it you are without exception not the same person afterwards.
Shaun.

jarndice
Captain
 
Posts: 4594
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:27 am
Location: the mountains of hertfordshire

Postby 43rdRecceReg » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:17 pm

jarndice wrote:I couldn't help wondering about the date of your Cousins untimely passing because the Indonesian Confrontation kicked off in the mid 60s,
Perhaps his suffering was caused by the Malayan Communist emergency that was primarily in the 50s although it kept going into the 60s long after the wider world thought it had ended,
My Uncle Tony who was called up in the mid 50s and served with the Suffolk Regt and was in the Malayan Peninsula at the time gave me some insight as to what to expect when I went to Borneo a few years later.
His advice "LOOK UP" was something that was never mentioned in my training but it probably saved my worthless neck more than once.
Gary is quite right call it what you like any euphemism is still WAR and whatever you call it friends as well as innocents as well as the "Enemy" all suffer,
As with your cousin whatever kind of person you were before you were involved in the filth and terror of it you are without exception not the same person afterwards.
Shaun.


Quite right, Shaun. It was the Malayan 'Emergency' in the 50s that brought about the intolerable repeat attacks of malaria. Sometimes, I muddle indonesia and Malaysia up, partly because of their proximity and also because of their cultural ties.. (Islam,. etc..). As a boy, I linked 'Malaysia' with 'Malaria', but forgot that. Little was said about his death, despite the fact that the very public nature of it hit the local papers. Shame, and lack of
'gumption' on his part- as a conclusion- were all you could expect in the 50s, and early 60s. The overused modern terms 'vulnerable', 'sensitive' 'PTSD" etc. were never used in those days. We still had echoes of 'lack of Moral Fibre' ringing in RAF ears, and the best a soldier could hope for was 'shell shock'... :thumbdown:
Last edited by 43rdRecceReg on Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Postby 43rdRecceReg » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:53 pm

A Pz IV pic here from the Aberdeen proving ground, and a Pz 111 from elsewhere, show the tanks, including spare tracks, etc., entirely covered in one coat of paint. This may, of course have been an economy measure, or simply a means of keeping rust away. Maybe it wasn't... :problem: The problem stems from the lack of actual WW2 colour photos to flesh out the camouflage issues.
Pz IV- Aberdeen Proving Ground.jpg
Pz IV Aberdeen proving Ground

Pz 3 paintwork.jpeg
Panzer 3 paintwork
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Postby ronnie42 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:33 pm

Time is money , yes and it protects the steel.
Also stops people taking souvenirs, might be difficult unscrewing threads and opening up hinges without a 4 pound hammer :O .
Those tanks won't be going anywhere in a hurry.

ronnie42
Private
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:00 pm

Postby 43rdRecceReg » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:09 pm

ronnie42 wrote:Time is money , yes and it protects the steel.
Also stops people taking souvenirs, might be difficult unscrewing threads and opening up hinges without a 4 pound hammer :O .
Those tanks won't be going anywhere in a hurry.

Fair points, but in WW2 Time wasn't so much money, as of the essence. My contention is that tanks that were repaired and put back in the field (many were) for example, or were painted on the move by maintenance crews, may just have been daubed all over with the colour(s) of that year and conflict, without regard to screw threads and general appearance. Putting white winter camouflage on a King tiger, for example would have been quite pointless, if the tracks on the turret- which are hard to miss- had been left unpainted.. :think:
Here's an example of a Pz IV where everything on the tank, including the spare tracks at the front, has evidence of three tone camouflage..
Thoroughly painted Panzer.jpg
Thoroughly painted Panzer- Panzer IV
Thoroughly painted Panzer.jpg (82.01 KiB) Viewed 567 times

Pity about the old/ unique Fox banner on the pic.
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Postby Lct548 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:33 pm

Looking at the idea it is reasonable that anything visible on a tank would need to blend with the tank or the camouflage is pointless. Look at the tools on the heng long tiger 1, the wooden shafts would need to be grey or the whole effect is ruined.

Lct548
Recruit
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:07 pm

Postby 43rdRecceReg » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:19 pm

Lct548 wrote:Looking at the idea it is reasonable that anything visible on a tank would need to blend with the tank or the camouflage is pointless. Look at the tools on the heng long tiger 1, the wooden shafts would need to be grey or the whole effect is ruined.

That was my reasoning as well. :problem: If you consider that some T34s were rushed straight from the factory to the frontline unpainted, for example, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine a similar impact on other combatant nations under pressure....
Steven Zaloga mentions these incidents in his book, 'T34/76 Medium Tank 1941-45'.
I wonder how one of these naked T34s would be represented by a modeller? :think: Bare metal, and a growing light coat of rust?
The silvery, and metallic painted shovels and tools, we see represented on models, would be a dead give away in bright light conditions on a battlefield.
User avatar
43rdRecceReg
2nd Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am
Location: North West Highlands, Scotland

Postby RobW » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:43 pm

I doubt those T34's had time to rust, the losses were horrific.

RobW
Staff Sergeant
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:55 pm
Location: Sheffield

Postby PainlessWolf » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:56 pm

Good afternoon,
An argument can be made for either mode of appearance. I like to detail paint add on bits for a factory fresh look then go from there with weathering, etc. This is strictly my own preference and I see beautiful examples all the time here on the Forum of complete spray and camo jobs as well as detail painted accessories. It is all good.
regards,
Painless
User avatar
PainlessWolf
Major
 
Posts: 6046
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:09 pm
Location: Front Range of Colorado

Next

Return to General Questions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: General Jumbo01, IV(AC), Tiger6 and 5 guests