How often were planes used in tank battles?

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gp100
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Re: How often were planes used in tank battles?

Post by gp100 »

Son of a gun-ner wrote:Sometimes when they make films, they use what vehicles and planes are available to them, we've spotted this in many films, take white tiger ;)

And I'm sure film producers convince themselves what they have at hand is what was used at the time ;)

Mick.
This is true. Like I said, I wasn't around in those days to tell anyone whether it was true or not.. I just know what we were told..

So I apologize if I gave wrong information.. I was in 5 scenes in the whole film. So had nothing personal invested in the history of the planes or tanks involved in the film.. I was just a stunt person on the set.. I only know what I was told.. I wasn't paid to be a historian on it. Just to take the hits.

I just know that they filmed the shot at the end with the P-51 taking out the tiger 1. It's in the film.. They told us they were doing the film as historically accurate as they could at the time..

If this is not the case, then my bad.. Sorry..
I used to be indecisive. Now, I'm not sure..
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silversurfer1947
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Re: How often were planes used in tank battles?

Post by silversurfer1947 »

Nothing to apologise for. It produced an interesting conversation, as a result of which, i think possibly we all came out a little wiser. When it comes down to it, for most of us, history is what we are told by other people, whether in person or what we read.
Richard
Tamiya Tiger 1, Taigen FlakPanzer IV,Torro M16 half-track, Tamiya Panther,WSN/Torro T34,Taigen M41 Bulldog,H/l/Taigen Sherman M4A3,H/L T90, Haya M3 Grant, Metal Origins 234/2 Puma, Nashorn by Alwyn. I was only going to have one tank - honest! :D
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43rdRecceReg
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Re: How often were planes used in tank battles?

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

Nothing to apologise for, GP. One of the functions of a Forum is for brains to get together to hammer out a sort of consensus reality. It's also about sharing, learning...a and laughing too, where possible. With something as massive as a World War, no-one has the absolute truth, as there were millions of viewpoints on it, and many things were deliberately hidden. Many remain hidden.Millions of stories remain untold.
Where German claimed 'kill' figures for tanks, for example, exceed actual losses by 300 %..truth becomes somewhat elastic. We can only work out an average of what was said, on any given topic, and draw out own conclusions.
I imagine some here might envy you your involvement with the making of Private Ryan. It must have been a really fascinating experience, and I personally rate the film very highly, especially for its ground breaking sound effects. :thumbup: For decades, we had to put up with the same implausible gunshot sounds, and wild ricochets, they had in the time of 'The Lone Ranger' and other westerns (including the spaghetti flavour!), through 'The Dirty Dozen' war film era, and up until Ryan.
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please"- Mark Twain.
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Tiggr
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Re: How often were planes used in tank battles?

Post by Tiggr »

The greatest air borne tank busting ace of WW II was Hans Ulrich Rudel with 519 kills using his Stuka...........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel
Tiger 1 Early Taigen,
Tiger 1 Mid Torro,
Tiger 1 Late Taigen,
King Tiger Taigen (P)
Jagdtiger Torro
King Tiger (H)
King Tiger Torro (H)
Tiger 1 late Torro
Panther G Taigen
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jarndice
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Re: How often were planes used in tank battles?

Post by jarndice »

The high "Kill" ratio in all forms of military endeavour by the German Armed Forces in the Bloodbath that was the Eastern Front indicates clearly the different philosophy in the value put on human lives by the Soviet High Command versus that of the equipment he/she was driving/flying and that of the Western Allies,
In the West no German Tank commander or Aircraft pilot was able to make such claims primarily because of the higher level of training given to the service personnel and the value placed on their lives in the American and British Empire armed forces versus the attitude given to their equipment, that and the refusal of the politicians to accept such high losses,
Churchill sacked General after General in the North African Campaign until he found a General who could win battles and save the needless loss of soldiers lives at the same time,
The Americans Grounded the B17s and B24s when the losses over Europe during their daylight operations got to 30%+ and the American Generals commanding the Battle for the Kasserine Pass and Salerno were unceremoniously fired when they were blamed for high losses of American soldiers.
Georgie Zhukov would never have understood such thinking where Security personnel (NKVD) would force Soviet Soldiers as well as captured soldiers at gunpoint into recently gained territory to clear land mines without any equipment.
This attitude was repeated in the Korean War by Chinese en-masse attacks on defended outposts.
Shaun.
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jarndice
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Re: How often were planes used in tank battles?

Post by jarndice »

American Generals were highly critical of the perceived temerity of British Generals in the use of Soldiers,
Most British Generals of WW2 fought in WW1 as subalterns in command of a platoon (35 men) on the western front and having witnessed such butchery were very careful in the use of their men later on whereas very few American Generals saw service in WW1 although Patton did and he was nowhere near as gung ho with the lives of his troops as the TV and press would have you believe ,
He believed a good plan and good use of intelligence properly carried through was the way to win.
Patton was the most respected Allied General in the Western theatre of operations by the German General officer Corps. But his own High Command and the Politicians back home did all they could to get rid of him whereas Montgomery was feted wherever he went.
Shaun.
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Raminator
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Re: How often were planes used in tank battles?

Post by Raminator »

Tiggr wrote:The greatest air borne tank busting ace of WW II was Hans Ulrich Rudel with 519 kills using his Stuka...........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel
Claimed kills. Coming out of an attack dive at 600 km/h, you'll have a hard time determining whether or not you've hit your target; much less quantify how much damage you've inflicted. The Soviets lost approximately 85,000 tanks during the entirety of the war, and estimated that less than 2% were to air attack. That'd mean that one pilot singlehandedly accounted for a third of those across a 1500 km frontline.

It's always best to take any kill/loss numbers with several spoonfuls of salt. If the crew bail out of an undamaged or easily repaired tank, does that count as a kill? If the crew die but the tank can be returned to service with new men, does that count as a kill? If the tank is damaged but a new gearbox/turret/track can be fitted to return it to service, does that count as a kill? How many times can one tank be killed? Different armies counted kills and losses differently, too. The Germans would not count a tank as lost until it was completely irretrievable. The Soviets would count a tank as lost even if it could be returned to service with a bare minimum of effort. During the course of the Battle of Kursk, the Soviets might have knocked the same Elefant out half a dozen times without breaching its armour, and counted a kill each time accordingly. The Germans would not have counted any of them as losses, since pioniers could retrieve it under cover of darkness and return it to service the next day. Who is correct?

I tend to take one side's claimed kills, the other side's claimed losses and average them out. As with so many things in life, the truth is bound to be in the middle. ;)
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gp100
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Re: How often were planes used in tank battles?

Post by gp100 »

43rdRecceReg wrote: I imagine some here might envy you your involvement with the making of Private Ryan. It must have been a really fascinating experience, and I personally rate the film very highly, especially for its ground breaking sound effects. :thumbup: For decades, we had to put up with the same implausible gunshot sounds, and wild ricochets, they had in the time of 'The Lone Ranger' and other westerns (including the spaghetti flavour!), through 'The Dirty Dozen' war film era, and up until Ryan.
Hi 43rd,

Actually, when they initially came to me to do the film, I said "no".. I thought this was going to be just another shoot-em-up war movie that they turned into a romance gig.. But then, I got a call from Tom Hanks, whom I had worked with before.. And we spoke for the better part of an hour on the phone.. He assured me this wasn't going to be the same old thing.. this was going to be a very different film that honored the vets..

I told him there is nothing romantic about war.. And I wouldn't be party to any of that crap.. If they did this film, it HAD to be real.. Not a damn joke.. He agreed.. I jumped on a plane the next day and we all sat and discussed the script.. I spent the next week reading the script.. I agreed to do the film because I truly believed in it.. It was as real as it gets.. We actually trained with real military people for almost a month..

I was in the very first scene.. I'm standing behind Tom Hanks and you see me take a bullet to the helmet.. Blood everywhere.. Then again I get my face shot off while I'm on the beach talking on the radio.. I'm also one of the German guys who is on a little tank thing, (I forget the name of it) that gets blown up and I'm on fire.. And a few other scenes..

It was the most grueling movie I've been on.. I agreed to do the film to honor the vets that actually lived through the hell of the war..

I didn't make a dime.. I donated my salary to programs for vets.. I made almost $175,000 to do the film.. And I gave it all away to those that deserved it more than me.. I did the movie, not for profit, but for honor.. To honor those that gave all, to destroy tyranny..

While I consider Saving Private Ryan to be one of the hardest films I've ever done, I also consider it one of the greatest films I've ever had the privilege of being involved in..

Just thought I would add a little "inside scoop" to the film. :)
I used to be indecisive. Now, I'm not sure..
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Estnische
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Re: How often were planes used in tank battles?

Post by Estnische »

That’s awesome GP. The first movie I saw without my parents was Kelly’s Heroes. I always enjoyed war movies growing up, built model kits, and generally devoured war stories. I saw the various Vietnam war movies like Platoon they were better.

When as a much older adult I saw SPR with my similarly- minded brother in-law, we were blown away, like everybody else. Nothing needed to be said between us, just a glance. This was the genuine article. It’s great to have your here GP. How was Dale Dye?
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43rdRecceReg
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Re: How often were planes used in tank battles?

Post by 43rdRecceReg »

gp100 wrote:
43rdRecceReg wrote: I imagine some here might envy you your involvement with the making of Private Ryan. It must have been a really fascinating experience, and I personally rate the film very highly, especially for its ground breaking sound effects. :thumbup: For decades, we had to put up with the same implausible gunshot sounds, and wild ricochets, they had in the time of 'The Lone Ranger' and other westerns (including the spaghetti flavour!), through 'The Dirty Dozen' war film era, and up until Ryan.



I was in the very first scene.. I'm standing behind Tom Hanks and you see me take a bullet to the helmet.. Blood everywhere.. Then again I get my face shot off while I'm on the beach talking on the radio.. I'm also one of the German guys who is on a little tank thing, (I forget the name of it) that gets blown up and I'm on fire.. And a few other scenes..

I

While I consider Saving Private Ryan to be one of the hardest films I've ever done, I also consider it one of the greatest films I've ever had the privilege of being involved in..

Just thought I would add a little "inside scoop" to the film. :)
Thanks for the first hand insight, GP. The very next time I see Private Ryan, I'll make a special note of your various spectacular deaths! I think Sylvia Plath once wrote in 'Lady Lazarus": "..Dying Is an art, like everything else. I do it exceptionally well. I do it so it feels like hell. I do it so it feels real..." She did succeed eventually, but you have the advantage of doing it over, and over, for our entertainment :thumbup: Good man!
"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please"- Mark Twain.
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