To Recoil or not to Recoil- that is the question...

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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:56 pm

Well, it's really a question of how much recoil is too much, especially when it is being generated by the tracks and motors? This is traditionally a knotty issue, and many here strive to eliminate track recoil from their HL and Taigen rides altogether. But even some Tamiya tanks have track recoil in addition to barrel recoil. (See below). After looking at countless hours of (real) tanks firing, I feel it's true to say that most rock to some extent, and some way more than others- like the Abrams, for example. Model tanks with barrel recoil should probably have a wee bit of track recoil too, but getting the level right can be tricky, frustrating, and expensive..
Here's the new Tamiya Abrams M1A2. Check the recoil out when it fires. Also immerse yourself in that glorious engine sound :thumbup: I have to get one of these :D !!!
phpBB [video]

Now, here's the barrel and track recoil on a Tamiya Tiger 1.
phpBB [video]

Clearly, the gods of RC tanking- Tamiya- even believe that some measure of track recoil, or a chassis shake, ought to accompany the main cannon shot. :think: While I agree, that HL models tend to jerk
in an excessive way, as if they've just had an electric shock, or had an invite to Harvey W.'s hotel suite, they should move a little- especially when most airsoft models have no barrel recoil.
A tank without track recoil to any degree, and also no barrel recoil, is going to be a boring wee tankie if all it does is use its barrel acting as a flashlight...IMHO :D
I note that Tamiya's M4A3 105mm Sherman is the only Tamiya tank without barrel recoil (I think), but it does have significant track recoil, like a typical HL model. Is that also a tad too much? In its absence there would be hardly any indication of a cannon going off.... :|
phpBB [video]
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Postby tomhugill » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:30 pm

I think tamiya have got it just right. Which is good as you can't change it! It's nice that you can dial it in on most aftermarket boards.

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Postby dgsselkirk » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:38 pm

That is what I like about the Clark and I'm sure some of the other boards too is you can set the recoil up and down as you like it...
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Postby PainlessWolf » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:54 pm

Good morning,
When I was building Mike's Tiger, I used an IBU2 and they have got that dial-it-in type of track recoil. Ian\Tankbear did a great job of setting that board up for me as it was my first venture into Hobby Grade waters. On my own late Tiger 1 (purchased from Jackalope ) I rebuilt it and used a Clark board since I was so pleased with how a previous TK-24 worked out for the M36B1 ( also purchased from Jackalope ) Companies like Taigen and HL are getting mighty close to Hobby Grade country. I have older versions of their MFUs in early Builds and I am still pleased with the IR Flash and Boom from Taigen and the powerful airguns that HL ( sometimes ) delivered on their tanks along with improving and progressive track control. Moving control of the smoker and volume levels to their radio was a huge and sales saving step for HL. Anyway, back to track recoil, the latest TK-24 from Clark on my Tiger 1 has it down to perfection. ( in my book at least ) Just a little track shake and quick recoil and slower return of the barrel. Reload sounds are a Plus. *chuckles* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTKVUGfQ7rY&t=15s
regards,
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Postby frankie » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:00 pm

I try to dial the recoil out as much as I can, giving just a himt of movement.....
phpBB [video]

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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:20 am

Thanks for the input, lads :thumbup: Incidentally, if I were buying the Tamiya M4 105mm, I'd be disappointed by its lack of detail, and lack of a recoil; but I would welcome the working lights, with remote on/off feature...
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Postby Ecam » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:13 pm

Frankie, that looks pretty darn good, in my opinion.
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Postby Rad_Schuhart » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:33 pm

43rdRecceReg wrote:Thanks for the input, lads :thumbup: Incidentally, if I were buying the Tamiya M4 105mm, I'd be disappointed by its lack of detail, and lack of a recoil; but I would welcome the working lights, with remote on/off feature...


If you want to keep the tamiya electronics, you can put light in all tamiya tanks. Just plug a electronic switch (about 3 euros) in a spare channel in your receiver, and you will be able to switch them on and off at your will.

I dont use tamiys electronics since years, but I put working lights and a smoke machine in a tamiya kng tiger. Even a servo recoil in a sherman.
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Postby greengiant » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:05 pm

Tanks do jerk when the main gun is fired, having been on the rear deck when a M60 fired its gun when I wasn't holding on I was knocked off my feet and almost off the tanks rear end.
The motion of the main gun recoil and return to battery is so fast that you would be hard pressed to say that you actually saw it.
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:50 am

greengiant wrote:Tanks do jerk when the main gun is fired, having been on the rear deck when a M60 fired its gun when I wasn't holding on I was knocked off my feet and almost off the tanks rear end.
The motion of the main gun recoil and return to battery is so fast that you would be hard pressed to say that you actually saw it.


..and that's probably why it's so difficult to simulate- especially at 1/16th scale. :think:
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Postby greengiant » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:53 pm

The light weight of model tanks is part of the problem. Weighing them down helps to keep the jerking more realistic. The main dislike I have with the Heng Long motion is that the tank advances slightly after each shot if fired from a still position. Real tanks on the firing line that are stationary may buck a lot but the stay put in one place as they are normally fired with brakes on and in neutral. Without bakes on, even when in gear, the tank is pushed backward a bit.
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:10 pm

greengiant wrote:The light weight of model tanks is part of the problem. Weighing them down helps to keep the jerking more realistic. The main dislike I have with the Heng Long motion is that the tank advances slightly after each shot if fired from a still position. Real tanks on the firing line that are stationary may buck a lot but the stay put in one place as they are normally fired with brakes on and in neutral. Without bakes on, even when in gear, the tank is pushed backward a bit.


I often wonder how much those old galleons heeled over when firing a full 30-gun broadside. I know tons of rocks were used as ballast in those old wooden warships, but maybe the armed ones carried more ballast than mercantile vessels, to act as a sort of 'brake'. Heeling over could be dangerous when firing and turning...especially with gun ports open. Just an incidenatal thought.. :think:
Perhaps we should put some lead weights on our tank floors, as tank ballast, eh? :D Tamiya provide cannon counterweights for their KT model, to retain some equilibrium when firing. Maybe they could add stick on weights to the floor as well. I've noticed from videos that their lighter models jerk more, but at least it's generally to the rear.
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Postby jarndice » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:42 pm

Painless First fitted foam sheet then poured stainless steel shot into the turret stowage box of his Tiger 1 to compensate for the weight of the retrofitted Aluminium main gun barrel,
Perhaps a similar solution would reduce the recoil in your piece de resistance.
Shaun.

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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:08 pm

jarndice wrote:Painless First fitted foam sheet then poured stainless steel shot into the turret stowage box of his Tiger 1 to compensate for the weight of the retrofitted Aluminium main gun barrel,
Perhaps a similar solution would reduce the recoil in your piece de resistance.
Shaun.

That man is becoming a legend :D .. yes, perhaps it would Shaun, although at this juncture I'm not sure which particular project will be my piece de resistance. I'm slowly becoming an RC project octopus though.. :D
Ah...but women are better at multi-tasking than men I've read . Hard cheese for me, then. :problem: :/
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:20 pm

Kevin of rctanks Australia made the ATRC unit (Anti-Track recoil Circuit) specifically to stop track recoil on HL/Taigen models. Here's his install video, which also includes a before- and- after segment showing the effect of the ATRC unit on
a KV-1.
Personally, I think a modicum of track jerk is better than none. Otherwise there's no drama in the cannon shot, apart from brief flash of light- especially in tanks with no barrel recoil. (Tamiya Sherman 105mm for example)
phpBB [video]

Also note his penchant for detergents in the background :D
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Postby wibblywobbly » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:01 pm

Also note his penchant for detergents in the background :D


Isn't that weedkiller?? :haha:
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Postby Tiggr » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:01 pm

greengiant wrote:The light weight of model tanks is part of the problem. Weighing them down helps to keep the jerking more realistic. The main dislike I have with the Heng Long motion is that the tank advances slightly after each shot if fired from a still position. Real tanks on the firing line that are stationary may buck a lot but the stay put in one place as they are normally fired with brakes on and in neutral. Without bakes on, even when in gear, the tank is pushed backward a bit.


Buying a mostly metal tank makes a big difference.
Once I had bought a Torro/Taigen metal Tiger, I sold my HL plastic ones, the recoil and ridiculous speed of the tanks spoiled the realism of the tank compared to when it was static as a model.
Even in the heavier metal tanks, a light touch on the controller is advisable if you want your tank to look real.

The recoil on my Torro Tiger 205 is spot on.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR6jiY2KUgo
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:55 pm

wibblywobbly wrote:
Also note his penchant for detergents in the background :D


Isn't that weedkiller?? :haha:

:haha: I think 'Resolve' is a stain remover (detergent)..and .the others look a bit blurry. I thought the only weeds they had in Australia were the England Test Match batting line up.. ( I do stress Test Match though)
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:10 am

Tiggr wrote:
greengiant wrote:The light weight of model tanks is part of the problem. Weighing them down helps to keep the jerking more realistic. The main dislike I have with the Heng Long motion is that the tank advances slightly after each shot if fired from a still position. Real tanks on the firing line that are stationary may buck a lot but the stay put in one place as they are normally fired with brakes on and in neutral. Without bakes on, even when in gear, the tank is pushed backward a bit.


Buying a mostly metal tank makes a big difference.
Once I had bought a Torro/Taigen metal Tiger, I sold my HL plastic ones, the recoil and ridiculous speed of the tanks spoiled the realism of the tank compared to when it was static as a model.
Even in the heavier metal tanks, a light touch on the controller is advisable if you want your tank to look real.

The recoil on my Torro Tiger 205 is spot on.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR6jiY2KUgo


Couldn't agree more Tiggr. But the extra weight then brings it's own unique set of challenges, especially with an under strength drive train (Including motors and ESCs). Personally, though,i could never understand why some contributors here want to turn their tanks into dragsters, like this one:
Dragster tank.jpg
Dragster Tank

The British Scorpion was known for its speed; so that wouldn't look odd racing across the garden. Even an ungoverned Cromwell could hit 40mph, and one was known to jump a canal in WW2 to escape a Tiger..
But, you really shouldn't see a King Tiger doing the 'traffic lights Grand Prix' thing. It really should crawl.
My Torro KY almost gave me a hernia. Luckily the right choice of suspension, and drive upgrades, have left it fairly dependable. Proportional speed is King with model tanks. Any deviation from that turns the model into a toy..and we don't play with toys. :problem: :lolno:
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Postby Norton1 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:53 pm

Well I will chime in here with my own experiences. In Viet Nam we Marines had an odd little critter called the "Ontos". It had 6 106 recoilless, yeah right, rifles mounted on it. I t was great for the country as it was light enough it could cross rice paddies without sinking in. And the 106's had a flechette round that was most impressive.You wanted fire superiority a couple barrels of needle like darts flung with precision into the area where we were taking fire and the fight was over. It would kill so quick the victims rarely bled. Shredded would be more the term I would use. And yeah the vehicle would recoil to a small degree. What I noticed more was the amount of dust kicked up around the pig.

I was in the last Marine beach assault being directly supported by the USS New Jersey. And it moved in the water as a broadside went off.Most impressive. Those of us heading for the beach in Amtracs were very impressed. Watch any WW-II film of a Marine beach assault in the Island campaigns and seeing the results on shore while offshore lent us to believe nothing could have survived. We were badly disappointed by the significant lack of damage. One little farmer had his garden damaged by the fire. The craters were most impressive though. But the ship would moved a couple of feet in the water when it fired.

Tanks would also recoil from firing. My problem with the 1/16 scale is that it always moves backwards. And if I am shooting towards the rear it would need to move forward. The M-1 Abrams doesn't tend to recoil as a unit. I was part of the senior infantry staff that witnessed its debut up at Ft. Lewis. And at 60 mph it could shoot, and hit, whatever it was aiming at. At a standstill it doesn't move but a tiny amount due to the superb recoil system in the main battery and how it handles the recoil.

So for me, if I want realism I want the tank to move, just not in any specific direction. A stiff shake would be much more appropriate. And the road dust that accumulates on tanks makes for a nice dust storm. THAT is the real truth about a tank firing. And yeah I am thinking it would near knock your butt off the rear deck.

Just my .02 centavos!!
Be well,
Steve

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