Bad Taigen gearbox or just a bad track?

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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:20 pm

They sell two types of metal boxes. Steel geared ones which aren't too bad for the money. But they also sell boxes with silvery gears that are made out of a soft alloy that really isn't that good for the purpose.
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Postby seb4 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:52 am

Son of a gun-ner wrote:They sell two types of metal boxes. Steel geared ones which aren't too bad for the money. But they also sell boxes with silvery gears that are made out of a soft alloy that really isn't that good for the purpose.


Thank you. Edit: Would it be possible to replace the shims/ bushings/ washers with these ones: https://heng-long-panzer.de/en/spare-br ... gears.html ( I do not know the proper English name).

Because the shims/bushings at the drive shafts on my Taigen gearbox have been worn out and that causes the wobbling. See also my next post.

Edit: Are these the good steel geared boxes? https://www.rctank.de/Leopard-2A6-metal ... long-axles
Last edited by seb4 on Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby seb4 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:53 am

This is my Taigen gearbox. The red marked flanged tubes/ shims (I do not know the correct English name), on which the drive shafts are mounted have both horizontal and vertical play. And that makes the drive shafts wobbling. These flanged tubes have ball bearings.

Could I replace them?


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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:52 am

These look like the bushes/bearings for the other gear shafts, the ones between the motor and the final drive.
Replacement Brass Bushings for Heng Long / Taigen Gear - Heng Long Tank
http://m.heng-long-panzer.de/item/32373630

Sadly brass isn't good enough as bush/bearing material, should be bronze, especially phosphor bronze. However, those in the link look the same material as what comes in heng long and taigen gear boxes.

These are the boxes with the gears made from soft alloy, probably the worst of the three types.
Leopard 2A6 - metal gearbox 2.1 with long axles, 24,95 €
https://www.rctank.de/Leopard-2A6-metal ... long-axles

The boxes you have are the better of the cheap range of boxes. Well, they should be. Because they have steel gears, and ball race bearings on the final drive.

Sadly, without your boxes in my hands, I won't be able to determine why you have that wobble. Is the shaft too small in the inner race of the bearing? Is the bearing too loose in the hole in the casing? Or is the bearing too loose with the balls in their grooves? Or is it a combination of these factors? Or, is it something else that's to do with the design of these boxes I haven't considered because I can't see them up close. Or, lastly, is it an acceptable amount of movement that looks worse than it is and just needs the larger bearings on the hull?
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Postby wibblywobbly » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:23 am

If the gears are binding, one trick is to get some valve grinding compound. Put a thin smear of it around the sticking gears and run the gearbox out of the tank. Only do this for around 60 seconds. Then test it again. Wash the compound off the gears with something like WD40 before you install them permanently. The compound will remove high spots on the gears and accelerates the bedding in, thus the gears will mesh smoothly.

One of the best gearbox lubricants is motorcycle chain spray. It has a solvent in it, so you spray it all over the gears and it soaks into every recess and bearing, then the solvent evaporates off leaving the grease in place. It is designed to stick to a chain at colossal speeds without flying off, so your gears will stay lubricated without coating the inside of the tank with grease.
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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:52 am

When using that valve grinding paste, you really have to be careful it doesn't get near any bearings or the motor. I have those pastes, but wouldn't use them on these gears. Instead I would remove the motor, and run the gear box using a drill, either dry, or with a light oil, especially with oil in the bushes either way.

Sorry Rob, but use of that grinding paste on these gears horrifies me.
But, using the motorcycle chain lube is an excellent idea, better than the bicycle chain lube I got for my boxes :thumbup:
Got this in Lidl.
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:18 pm

I've tried several options. Tamiya's grease in the wee blue tubes works very well, especially on bearings. It's worth noting that has no adverse effects on neighbouring Styrene or ABS parts. The same can't be said for some lubricants and it's well worth checking compatibility.. :think:
Of late, I've used these two; but prefer the PTFE type as it's less messy, keeps gear noise down, and is supposed to be safe on plastics (but it's prudent to mask for overspray, anyway :thumbup: )
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Happy lubing! :D
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Postby wibblywobbly » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:23 pm

It's worked for me in the past, as long as it is only applied to the gears and run at a low speed, it doesn't go anywhere other than the gear teeth. They only need a thin smear of paste. It works on the white metal HL gearboxes a treat, as they are rough cast, and quietens them down. Filling the recess in the back of the gears with bathroom silicon reduces that rattling sound as well. I've never had a problem with bedding in tight gears that way, and have had gearboxes in tanks for years with no ill effects at all. :thumbup:
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Postby jarndice » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:34 pm

When I first started using Metal gearboxes the recommendation was before putting the gearboxes under load the gears should be given a light coating of "Toothpaste" and spun over on the bench then cleaned off and fitted into the tank and lightly lubricated.
It has to be remembered that Toothpastes have become markedly more abrasive than they used to be so a "Fine Lapping Compound" might be a better bet but it absolutely must be cleaned off after use and I would avoid getting any abrasives on Bearings/Bushes.

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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:39 pm

Yeah, one would have to be very careful with the paste, and how it was washed off.

You've lost me with your silicon fix Rob, I need to know more :thumbup:
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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:42 pm

Again, one would have to be careful with the toothpaste too, not to get it in the bearings. I have a feeling the smokers toothpaste like Eucryl would be more abrasive :thumbup:
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:17 pm

Son of a gun-ner wrote:Again, one would have to be careful with the toothpaste too, not to get it in the bearings. I have a feeling the smokers toothpaste like Eucryl would be more abrasive :thumbup:

Nae worries, Mick, if the bearings are already greased up with Tamiya, or similar, model bearing grease they prevent the ingress of unwelcome abrasives. PTFE for the gears, and shafts completes the lubing. ;)
Eucryl might be useful for smokers, or ex smokers (or those currently obsessed with blindingly white teeth- where did that come form?), but I'd give it a miss. Fixadent, should also be avoided though :lolno:
(and no...I don't use it..a few of my teeth are still my own..Ah dunnae hae Glasgow teeth. :D )
My own inclination is to let gears bed-in naturally, through wear and tear, unless they're really burred. At the price some of us pay, they shouldn't be!
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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:25 pm

Hey Roy, I'm only suggesting a type of toothpaste to use. Like I said above, I'm horrified with the use of abrasive on the gears, so I'm in the same camp as you :thumbup:
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Postby seb4 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:03 pm

43rdRecceReg wrote:I've tried several options. Tamiya's grease in the wee blue tubes works very well, especially on bearings. It's worth noting that has no adverse effects on neighbouring Styrene or ABS parts. The same can't be said for some lubricants and it's well worth checking compatibility.. :think:
Of late, I've used these two; but prefer the PTFE type as it's less messy, keeps gear noise down, and is supposed to be safe on plastics (but it's prudent to mask for overspray, anyway :thumbup: )
Image
Happy lubing! :D


I have used this for lubricating the gear:

Image It is a white lithium grease, recommended by another forum member. To avoid adverse effects on styrene parts I did apply it with a new soft brush. it is water resistant and resistant against high temperatures.

If needed I can buy this PTFE variant, the left one which leaves a dry grease residue, to prevent dirt adhering to the gear wheels : Image

I am thinking to apply some normal WD40 oil on the drive shafts bearings with a clean brush. What do you think?

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Postby seb4 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:17 pm

Son of a gun-ner wrote:These look like the bushes/bearings for the other gear shafts, the ones between the motor and the final drive.
Replacement Brass Bushings for Heng Long / Taigen Gear - Heng Long Tank
http://m.heng-long-panzer.de/item/32373630

Sadly brass isn't good enough as bush/bearing material, should be bronze, especially phosphor bronze. However, those in the link look the same material as what comes in heng long and taigen gear boxes.

These are the boxes with the gears made from soft alloy, probably the worst of the three types.
Leopard 2A6 - metal gearbox 2.1 with long axles, 24,95 €
https://www.rctank.de/Leopard-2A6-metal ... long-axles

The boxes you have are the better of the cheap range of boxes. Well, they should be. Because they have steel gears, and ball race bearings on the final drive.

Sadly, without your boxes in my hands, I won't be able to determine why you have that wobble. Is the shaft too small in the inner race of the bearing? Is the bearing too loose in the hole in the casing? Or is the bearing too loose with the balls in their grooves? Or is it a combination of these factors? Or, is it something else that's to do with the design of these boxes I haven't considered because I can't see them up close. Or, lastly, is it an acceptable amount of movement that looks worse than it is and just needs the larger bearings on the hull?


Thank you for your answer, determining all the possible reasons. Really helpful :thumbup:

The bearing is too lose in casing hole, and I think that is due to the excessive wear during that swamp adventure. But the tank is driving ok, so the larger bearings on the hull are an option.

However I am a bit hesitant to do that since I read on another thread that it is not easy to properly fix it, at least not on a Leopard 2a6. What are your experiences with fitting the axles supports if I may ask?

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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:19 pm

I wouldn't recommend ordinary WD40 as a lube, it will flush out any other lube, it's more a cleaner. By all means use it to flush out grime, but use another lube after the ordinary WD40 dries out.
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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:25 pm

Sorry, I've only just located my stock of bearings a couple of weeks ago, I intend to make my own supports. Although I've run some stock heng long tanks over the years, I haven't yet fitted these supports.
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Postby seb4 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:48 pm

Son of a gun-ner wrote:I wouldn't recommend ordinary WD40 as a lube, it will flush out any other lube, it's more a cleaner. By all means use it to flush out grime, but use another lube after the ordinary WD40 dries out.


Ok, thanks.

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Postby seb4 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:58 pm

jarndice wrote:Hi,WD40 make a Dry PTFE spray which is ideal for lubricating Gearboxes
(WD-40 Specialist. Anti Friction DRY PTFE Lubricant) .
You mentioned Axle Support bearings, I am a firm believer in them and it is one of the first modifications on every Tank I purchase,
They prevent excess stress on the gearbox mountings and stabilise the gearbox output shafts which reduces the chance of Tracks being "Thrown".
I was surprised that the Taigen Gearboxes were so disappointing,
If you did buy them from DOM at http://www.rctank.de He would certainly want to hear about the problems you are having with them,
I would advise against buying Heng Long Metal Gearboxes, Yes they are much cheaper BUT they really are RUBBISH,
Whereas the Nylon Heng Long Gearboxes are very good value.


Edit- can you tell me if it is a bit easy to mount the axle support bearings? I read elsewhere on this forum that it can be problematic- at least with the Heng Long Leopard 2a6, but I cannot find that thread anymore.

Thank you.
Bastiaan

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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:53 pm

A few observations:
Mick (SOAG) is right when he says the basic WD40 works better as a solvent,or rust-beater, than as a lubricant. The dry PTFE WD40, and lithium-based offerings above, are indeed 'specialist' lubricants and should be fine. I've used lithium based ones, but now prefer PTFE dry lubricant. Do check, however, that the lube. you opt for doesn't have solvent properties. Otherwise, it might well begin to eat into your ABS or Styrene bits. In any event, always shield/mask the plastic body parts off before spraying, just to be safe. That's my tip. :)
Shaun (Jarndice), has a massive fund of knowledge, and experience to offer, and is absolutely right when he writes that support bearings can greatly reduce output shaft (and therefore gearbox) wear. :thumbup:
However, success in finding and fitting them, varies from model to model. As an example, I fitted some to the drive casings of the Asiatam Panzer IV chassis. That involved reaming out the recess in the transmission casing, because the casing was a bad fit for the support bearing (Not andersherum or vice versa...). That was a total pain. >:< Fitting them to a Tiger is quite a lot easier, and also to the Kingtiger.
I'd say that most builders/enhancers would probably recommend fitting them, though....especially if your models clock up the Kilometers on battlefields or rough terrain :) :thumbup:
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