Jadpanzer 1/16 RC future release

[jarndice]

Tamiya once upon a time were innovators but now the Chinese having learnt that they by producing a cheaper product with cheaper but acceptable running gear and electronics have overturned that lead and captured the market and using their lower manufacturing costs can spend money on 21st century armour design and production,
The most up to date Tamiya Tanks were the JSDF heavy Tank and the Leopard, the home market loved them but in a competitive world toy market without continuing to offer a product with appeal in that greater market you better keep a close eye on what is coming from your competitors,
And here is Tamiya's problem they do not recognise the cheap Chinese product as competition, It is US the hobbyist who compares and upgrades to make an affordable silk purse out of a cheap sows ear,
So along comes a cheaper Leopard, then comes the Abram's which does no harm in the North American market and follows up with the Challenger 2 and all the time the quality of the Chinese product just keeps on improving and is still cheap enough for Dad to buy one for Johnnie without too much thought of the cost AND IT IS READY TO RUN out of the box,
And we get a product we can afford to upgrade (Witness SCALAWAGS Abram's and Challenger 2) There would be an outlay in excess of £1,000 if their was an attempt to do the same work to an equivalent Tamiya Abram's or Challenger 2.
How many young people presented with a Tamiya Tank give up half way through to the frustration of a Father who swears NEVER AGAIN will I spend a months wages on a toy that gathers dust and is never completed leave alone played with ?
The Tiger Tank saw its last action over 71 years ago, The generation who fought with and against them are almost gone, todays generation are not enthralled as we were/are by such military antiquity,
They are the generation of the first and second Iraq wars, that is what sparks their interest and that generation is what HENG LONG /TAIGEN/TORRO aim there cleverly priced products at.
We hobbyists are way down on the list of priority's as far as the Chinese are concerned, They are selling TOYS
Do Tamiya know what their market is ?
Most of us on the Forum aspire to a Tamiya Tank but in the real world many of us have to settle for second best, only second best is breathing down the neck of the front runner.
Shaun.

[jarndice]

Eastern thank you for your reasoned response, I am trying to get a discussion on the reasoning behind Tamiya's progress or lack of it in modern armour versus an opposition they seem to have failed to notice,
I am glad you see that I am not looking to start an argument,
I like Tamiya Armour but I am in despair over their failure (as I see it) to keep up.
I am pleased the Chinese are making and selling 1/16 R/C Armour both WW2 and more modern but I do not think they are in this for the long haul whereas I hope and pray if only for the high standards that TAMIYA have set they do keep 1/16 Armour going, but if they cannot or will not design and build more modern armour I think they will be overtaken,
Remember "KODAK" Where are they now? And yet they once ruled the world.
Take a look at modern corporate Japan and companies that in the 60s and 70s were emerging, seemingly from nowhere to push Europe and the United States into the economic shrubbery are now suffering to the point where without modern products to sell they are on the verge of extinction.
Shaun.

[Ad Lav]

Kind of agree and disagree.

The tamiya type 10 is a stunning piece of innovation, a few flaws but nothingn is without them. How many Chinese tanks can rotate the turret with the barrel depressed and raise the barrel when it reaches the hull? All seamlessly I might add.

The leopard was at the top of its game when released in 2004, it took a long time for the other manufacturers to 'copy' and catch up. That's what the Chinese are notorious for - copying and getting away with it.

I agree the jagdpanzer isn't exactly ground breaking in that it utilises the lower hull and sounds from the 2008 released panzer IV but it's still nice to have something new. Perhaps the next release will be all new?

They do need to listen however, we would all love to see a proper modern tank, not some random tank half the world won't know. Let's wait and see.

[HERMAN BIX]

I assume that the base of this product will be using much of the existing PZ4 chassis as well as the Electrics and gearboxes, so if it is markedly more expensive it will turn out to be what many of us think of TAMIYA,
Lacking in innovation and grossly overpriced,
But it will sell like hot cakes based on a very worn reputation.
I await the many and not particularly varied comments trying to defend this money making behemoth,
There are a number of Tanks that have little or no representation in 1/16 (R/C as well as Static) even though going by the plea's from different Forum there is a demand,
I know that it costs money to design and make the moulds for a new product but that is what a model making company is supposed to do. SO DO IT TAMIYA and soon.
Shaun.

I agree that Tamiya should "get in the game" and exercise their historical market standard in all things hobby. BUT, I will temper that with the fact that its far easier to follow a leader, wait for an opportunist moment, create and release a popular alternative, then wait again for the next step from the market leaders. Yes, the Chinese method is this, but Tamiya have to realise, they are not living in a commercial or hobby bubble now.
The average joker wants to get into a tank for a manageable outlay, that is up to the individuals choice and funding option.
It is a hobby after all, and while Tamiya may be the Gold Standard in certain areas of kit hobby, this standard is not always what the popular consumer wants.
That is a commercial wet dream for any business.
Myself, I can easily afford a Tamiya of any type, but I choose to get an H/L as its more sensible for the overall picture with family etc.
Plus, I can do as much or as little as I choose to do, without the burden of having to live up to the kits expectation as a huge outlay=huge reward thing.
Tamiya should meet the market and update their product range, but in the commercial world, and in a certain scale V's the other most popular earner(1/35th) they can afford to dawdle.
I ask any of you.................

Is a Tamiya actually a clear THOUSAND dollars(in most currencies) better than a H/L out of the box ??(without radio)
If so, the popular market does not agree.
And that gentlemen, is the capitalist reality.
Tamiya have the quality provenance to stamp out all before them, we all agree with that, so why not step up to the commercial plate & give the world the undisputed options like the '35th range ??

Production cost & market share.

No good getting pissed off, thats life.
I really hope the IV/70 comes out, as it will spawn the H/L equivalent !!

Mr Scalawag has a T-90
Half the board has an Abrams
The other half has a Challenger
Entry into this hobby is a Tiger 1
I can buy 4 (FOUR) H/L King Tigers for the cost of 1(one) Tamiya King Tiger(without radio gear)
If we compare Toyota's to a Porsche................most of the world drive Toyotas and hope to have a Porsche.
But they both get us to work on time!!

When I was at high school, I won a model comp with a Tamiya Jagdtiger that took a year to save for, and 6 months to build...........................forward 35 years and I would be facing the same issue

[HERMAN BIX]

By the way, its not "moaning" , its expressing an opinion without resorting a huge picture or personal judgement statement............

That right there is "trolling"

and we all know where that ends up ...............dont we. Hmmmm ?

Lets all agree that if Tamiya do ever release this IV/70 it will be a long time coming and be very popular.
Add to that it will inevitably lead to a 'knock off' and that will be up for all to behold.

[jarndice]

That's what I was trying to say
Not one word that I would question
Shaun.

[tomhugill]

By the way, its not "moaning" , its expressing an opinion without resorting a huge picture or personal judgement statement............

That right there is "trolling"

and we all know where that ends up ...............dont we. Hmmmm ?

Lets all agree that if Tamiya do ever release this IV/70 it will be a long time coming and be very popular.
Add to that it will inevitably lead to a 'knock off' and that will be up for all to behold.

Hi Herman,

I was merely giving another side of the coin and inject some facts. I would like to try and clear something up however. Tamiyas in general don't cost $1000. I had a look today and the kv-2 $674, the type 10 $858 (and I belive it's the most expensive). These are both with 2.4ghz radio and batteries from banzai hobby. Let's not take this into a Tamiya vs henglong et al debate, it's been done to death and I thought the purpose of this thread was to show the Tamiya new release rather than debate how they sit in the market place.

Sorry about the moan comment, no "personal judgment statement intended", it does get me when we went through a phase barren of new releases that people are so quick to be critical of something they don't know the full details of.

[Ad Lav]

Just a quick note - jarndice what tamiya tanks do you own?

[wibblywobbly]

Ooohhh, a lively discussion. I like those.

Ok, here is where I stand. Heng Long got me into this hobby with a £50 Tiger. fast forward a few years and there was nothing left of the original tank, and I had spent, I think around £800 on it? In those days you had to buy all of the upgrades separately and they cost a fortune. I could go out and buy a similar one now for almost a third of that, just needing electrics.

My interest is in taking a tank, or bits of tanks, and making something out of them. It is what keeps my interest. I have one 'solid' tank, and that is an RCTank.de Panther, with an Elmod Fusion Eco board in it. The only changes I made were a servo recoil, and raising the sprocket, both very simple jobs. There is no comparison between this tank and a Tamiya for the price. About £250, all built and painted. It has torsion bar suspension, metal road wheels, tracks, idlers and sprockets, a metal barrel, photo etch parts, quick release hull, and just about anything else that you can buy to upgrade a Panther G. The Elmod board leaves Tamiya's system looking like something out of a neanderthal cave. So for £400 I have a tank that cannot be improved. I charge the battery, take it to meets and that's it.

My other tanks are all HL. Cheap to buy, and because they are cheap I am not concerned about modifying them, something that I would be reticent to do with an expensive Tamiya. Parts are cheap and easily available too. It also means that I can stick whatever board I want in them, and all of the aftermarket boards are way better than Tamiya's.

If Heng Long took the plunge and designed an decent board for their tanks, which would only add around £30 to the price, they would probably put Tamiya out of business. I have owned a Tamiya Panther G, and I will be honest I sold it as I didn't like the way it ran, totally unrealistic, and things like the recoil, turret rotation and elevation were over complicated and needed mods to get them working anything like smoothly and reliably. HL make much cheaper and more efficient versions.

All of that said, HL go for the childrens toy market. They sell hundreds of thousands of them. None of them get any upgrades at all, and spend most of their lives in a cupboard. Take a look at the forums and there are very few modellers into 1/16 scale tanks, it is a small community, and we pretty much all know each other on first name terms. Tamiya go for that market. Mato meanwhile are going for the same market as Tamiya, but building metal tanks. Low production, high cost.

Resale values are also a consideration. Look at Tamiya used prices, especially on Ebay, that is one heck of a hit if an owner decides to sell their tank? I wouldn't knock anyone for buying a Tamiya, some people love them for all sorts of reasons, it's a matter of what someone wants out of the hobby.

[Rad_Schuhart]

So there we are, in another HL VS tamiya discussion. First of all, I must say that I like how jagdpanzer lang looks, but I wont buy it.

I started with a HL Panzer III with only metal sprochets, tensioners and tracks. It ran everywhere for hours and hours and kilometers flawlessly. One day I decided to upgrade it with an IBU and it was like something out of this world.

After some people saying that HL was for children and Tamiya for adults and modellers and it had an impressive quality I decided to buy a Sherman.

I enjoyed a lot putting al bits together, but when you notice that the molds were made in 1975, with no too much detal and you are no able to open the hatches and things like that I was somewhat annoyed. The electronics at the beggining looked good, but were boring and primitive like hell. Unveliebable that they dont change it.

Some time later I did a first test run in the garden and I got all the return rollers jammed and completelly worn. I think I did something wrong so I bought some spares and did another test run with same results. After that I took a look to some videos at youtube and saw most of the tanks were having the same issues, so I replaced again all those wheels and left my sherman at the top of the shelf.

So I I ended with a nice tank for the shelf that people enjoys looking, but terrible overpriced. I paid 370 euros for it, so I can not imagine the feelings of those who paid for it something like 1.500 euros.

With one I had enough, and now, if you excuse me, Im going to ride my old but trusty Panzer III over mud and things like that.