Surprising find!

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NAB
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Surprising find!

Post by NAB »

I bet a lot of people here have things tucked away but this surely beats the lot!

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instan ... ement.html

I want to know how big this basement was!

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jhamm
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Re: Surprising find!

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EAO
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Re: Surprising find!

Post by EAO »

Hey all,

I've been watching this story with much interest since I first heard about it back in 2017 or so. It's a shame he probably won't get it back. I can understand how it makes some people nervous, but really it seems a bit overblown. He should be commended for taking such great care of such a historical item. Truly seems he didn't mean any harm with it.

Cheers,
Eric.
"You can always tell a German, you just can't tell him much." Anonymous.

German cars, German girls, German beer, German firearms, German Shepherds, German motorcycles... Not necessarily in that order though!

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jhamm
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Re: Surprising find!

Post by jhamm »

Hi Eric,
the Heikendorfer Panther was build later 1945 at the Panther factory M.N.H under the direction of the British Army REME.
It´s a Panther without any war history....
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Raminator
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Re: Surprising find!

Post by Raminator »

EAO wrote:I've been watching this story with much interest since I first heard about it back in 2017 or so. It's a shame he probably won't get it back. I can understand how it makes some people nervous, but really it seems a bit overblown. He should be commended for taking such great care of such a historical item. Truly seems he didn't mean any harm with it.
The issue is more with the Nazi sculptures, stolen artwork, and non-demilitarised small arms with ammunition in his collection. It's not like the German authorities have decided to bully a helpless pensioner, some eccentric old man with a tank in his garage. From the information available online, he's well-connected, well-financed and really should have known better about what he was doing.
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Re: Surprising find!

Post by NAB »

Don't forget the anti aircraft gun!


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jhamm
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Re: Surprising find!

Post by jhamm »

Nazi sculptures, stolen artwork are not part of the charge.
The Panther and the 8,8cm flak have been classified as non-dangerous by the judge.
In his eyes, they are museum pieces that do not fall under the German War Weapons Control Act.
A mortar, a torpedo and several small arms with ammunition were also confiscated.
The mortar is not demilitarised, a torpedo is generally not allowed to be owned as a private person in Germany and most of the handguns were not registered.
Mr. Flick is a rich old man, but he is not related to the well-known industrial Flick family.
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EAO
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Re: Surprising find!

Post by EAO »

Hi guys,

Over the years I have read so many differing reports that it is hard to know what this Gentleman has (or had). I kept hearing that the Panther was a 1943 model. Perhaps, 1943 parts assembled post war by the French? Very interesting to learn that it has no battle pedigree, but still must be a very rare beast.

I had heard that no looted artwork or other valuables were found. I totally support the return of any items taken from Holocaust victims or from occupied territories. You are quite correct that given his background he should of known he was taking a chance with owning anything not allowed by law.

DEWATs (Deactivated War Trophies) are a tricky area with laws being changed all the time, seemingly for no reason. Here in the States we cannot import a Canadian DEWAT as they don't meet all the U.S. requirements (I don't know about the other way around though). I have two German friends who are both serious TR collectors with massive collections. I met them through a friend of mine who is a very well respected U.S. dealer of militaria. The two (who will remain unnamed) both have a Von in there last names. They are very well off and well connected, coming from a long line of military families. Both have purchased firearms here in the States that were not deactivated. They then had them worked on to make them legal to import and own in Germany (kind of a shame as they were very rare). The following red tape and inspections took nearly a year before they were cleared, and one had to be further modified. I asked them how they were allowed to have these collections given the delicate state surrounding these things in Germany. They said that as long as it is privately displayed and not generally viewable by the public things were allowed. Of course this was about 15 years ago, so who knows what the standard is now. Given their status perhaps they were treated a little "easier" than the common citizen?

I have a friend who is a docent at the late Paul Allen's Flying Heritage and Combat Armor Museum in Everett, just North of Seattle where we once lived. I was treated to an after hours, behind the scenes tour of the museum and workshops. Unfortunately, this was before he acquired his collection of armor and it was strictly an aircraft museum (except for the Kettenkrad). So no, I still haven't stood next to a real German Panzer! :lolno: I can't fully recall which plane it was (either the Me 109, or his Fw 190) that was caught up in customs for over a year, sitting in the Port of L.A. Since it still had a working cannon, it was still legally considered a "weapon of mass destruction". He finally got it cleared but I'm not sure anymore what he had to do to make it legal. If Mr. Allen has to put up with the law's, I guess no one is really exempt!

It'll be very interesting to see the final outcome of this long running tale, and to maybe clear up some of the confusion too! Keeping anything a secret nowadays is next to impossible given the state of society. My Grandfather had a saying he was very fond of: "Admit nothing, deny everything, make counter accusations"! :wtf: I prefer "3 can keep a secret, if two are dead"! :think: Just kidding,,, really!

Very, very interesting situation.
Cheers,
Eric.
"You can always tell a German, you just can't tell him much." Anonymous.

German cars, German girls, German beer, German firearms, German Shepherds, German motorcycles... Not necessarily in that order though!

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jhamm
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Re: Surprising find!

Post by jhamm »

Hello Eric,
the "history" of the Panther is very well known.
It is definitely one of the Panthers which were assembled in Hannover after the end of the war under British supervision from remaining stocks at M.N.H. in Hannover.
Several Panthers and Jagdtpanthers were assembled and shipped to England for testing and trials.
Afterwards, some Panthers were used as hard targets on shooting ranges.
The Heikendorf Panther Wreck was found in a scrap yard in England in the 1970s and brought to Germany.
Here are some pictures:
Bild5.jpg
Bild5.jpg (65.84 KiB) Viewed 1758 times
4dmgra8.jpg
4dmgra8.jpg (66.66 KiB) Viewed 1758 times
The German weapons laws were tightened again in September 2020.
A demilitarised weapon requires massive processing.
The cartridge chamber must be welded
The barrel must be provided with 6 cross bores of the same calibre.
The breech must be bevelled at an angle of 45°.
The magazine must be firmly attached to the weapon.
A demilitarised weapon must now also be registered!!!!

Here in Germany we have the strictest laws regarding weapons of war.
The current laws in Germany make it almost impossible for a private person to own a tank.
The requirements are so enormous that one loses the fun of it. You are not allowed to show or move the tank.
That's why half of the Munster tank museum is owned by the German army.
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Re: Surprising find!

Post by HERMAN BIX »

Folks, before we all get bogged down in the pro's & cons of the principles surrounding this relic AFV's history or fate, lets remember it is the subject of a sovereign nations laws, and anything we say or think here is pure fantasy & cannot be compared to any other nations laws or expectations in this context.

Either way this story ends, the main thing is that the tank is preserved for posterity, and the fate or conduct of its custodian shall be judged by those mandated to do so under the laws they obey.................
HL JAGDPANTHER,HL TIGER 1,HL PzIII MUNITIONSCHLEPPER, HL KT OCTOPUS,HL PANTHER ZU-FUSS,HL STuG III,HL T34/85 BEDSPRING,
HL PZIV MALTA,MATORRO JAGDTIGER,HL F05 TIGER,TAMIYA KT,HL PANTHERDOZER,HL EARLY PANTHER G,TAIGEN/RAMINATOR T34/76,
HL AN-BRI-RAM SU-85
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