If this is the future, my hobby ends here. :(

Feel free to discuss anything and everything to do with tanking here!

Postby Rad_Schuhart » Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:28 pm

Hi guys, sorry for the apocaliptic title, but this is how I feel it now. I am talking about the new taxes for everything we order from outside the EU.

As an example, I had a model kit that arrived short of one tire. I contacted the factory and they sent me the replacement tire for the price of one euro. Well, I got the envelope today, and now customs wants me to pay 6.04 euros for that 1 euro parcel. I thought we had to pay from now on a 20% tax, which is something that I could assume, struggling a bit though, so I investigated a bit about the import charges and it says there is now always a minimum which ranges from 6 till 36 euros, depending in the mood of the zoll clerk, and then, you add the 20% tax.

So that means I cannot afford anything from Aliexpress now. As an example, a packet of 200 leds costed me 90 cents free shipping. Now, it is going to be 7 euros.
Get the leds locally? I asked at the local shop and they wanted me to pay 1 euro for each led.
Get loads of other things I need? I cannot find almost anything here in Austria. It is completelly different to when I used to live in the UK or in Spain.
Ordering from Germany? Loads of sellers refuse to ship outside Germany and charge you 19 eur shipping with DHL even when I am 300km away.

So if it keeps like this, I'd better start looking for another hobby. Crossdressing with my wife's clothes or something like that I guess, because this is not sustainable now.

Sorry for the rant and hopefully you have heard better news somewhere...
Last edited by Rad_Schuhart on Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kaczor » Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:39 pm

Yes, that suck. Here in Poland is even worse with galloping inflation and expensive EUR or USD to PLN ratio. Now there is no point to buy i.e Mato part on Aliexpress, when the prices are almost the same as Forgebear or rctank.de...
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Postby Model Builder 4 » Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:42 pm

I noticed this a little while ago when shopping on Aliexpress Rad, the price of the item changed when I placed it into my cart, it updated when it knew my location and added tax onto the item so something's that were initially reasonable became a little more expensive, I fear this is what it's going to be like now for buying outside of one's country :thumbdown:

Cheers,Lee.
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Postby Rad_Schuhart » Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:54 pm

Kaczor: Woah, yes, with currency not as strong as the Euro, Pound or Dollar, definitelly everything is even worse. I know some Aussies who struggle with the changes too.

Model Builder 4: Yes, now when you are going to pay an extra 20ish % is added... And well, that is still more or less OK, but then to add from 5 to 36 euros depending of the mood of the clerk to the parcel, makes everything unpayable. I have currently 5 parcels on the way to me, I paid for all of them together about 5 euros. Now with the VAT I think it is reassonable to pay 6 in total, but not the minimum of 35 that the post services are going to ask me.

But even worse!: Currently, the local prices are outrageous, but the shops also buy outside, so of course they will have to pay more now, and will rise the local prices too, making everything unobtainable.

Be prepared, the hunger games are starting...
Last edited by Rad_Schuhart on Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby abramsky » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:20 pm

Hello Rad
It suck, but for years, Customs offices have known the "tricks" of Chinese sellers reducing the value of products in a customs declaration. I myself have received parcels from China several times with a value 4-5 times lower than the real one - even though I did not ask for it ...
As a result of the entry of new VAT regulations in the EU (although this principle has existed for a long time - for many years), the customs officer has the right to charge customs duties on the actual value ... And where does this value come from? It simply - compares the price of the item in the recipient's country and charges fees according to it. As I said. Such rules for calculating tax and duty have existed for a very long time. But so far, many parcels, mainly envelopes, have been cleared without verification of their value - because the scale of import is huge and they did not keep up with their verification ...
Therefore, now the customs officers simply decided that the easiest (and fastest) thing is to assume that nothing can be cheaper than, for example, 5 EURO. Simple and effective ;)
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Postby jhamm » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:24 pm

Hi Rad,
the € 22 limit for duty exemption was always an exception ....
At the beginning of 2020, the eu commission decided
that the exception will be abolished by the end of 2020.
Since some EU countries could not implement this so quickly, the end postponed by 6 months.
The result is that all goods have been checked by customs since July 1st.
The recipient can decide to pick up the goods at the customs office and pay the duties there,
or the parcel service takes care of the customs formalities and collects an additional service fee.
This service fee is based on the value of the goods.
I don't know how that is regulated in the "Ostmark" ....
here in DE the recipient must be asked.
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Postby General Jumbo01 » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:41 pm

Yes, you pay local purchase tax when you make the online purchase, just as though you are a local, then the UK customs want another 20% vat and won't allow delivery until you've paid, then DHL want their £12 but Arcel Force take over in the UK and muck things up and deliver it anyway.

What this means is that you can no longer afford to buy from outside your country AND our specialist retailers like Forgebear find they are paying far more too to stock their shelves and have to pass the cost on.

Leaving the EU was a hobby disaster but at least we're not riddled with Covid because our politicians were free to buy up the world supply of vaccines. Well, they claim it was them who saved us! Now, what we need is RC Tank mules to get our bits into the country undetected. Problem is, hiding a King Tiger up your back passage is rather difficult and quite uncomfortable. I imagine!

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Postby Rad_Schuhart » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:55 pm

Abramsky: It is correct many of us received some parcels with a declared value lower than the real price, and I understand they can charge the VAT, but what I don't understand is the newer extra charge.

Jhamm: This is what I found today, probably you understand it much better than me: https://www.post.at/p/c/import But this image is pretty clear now:
Image
So that means everything we get will be at least 5 euros more expensive now, plus the taxes.

That is a rip off.
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Postby abramsky » Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:41 pm

It's easy Rad. And as i know - nothing new here:
- Value of goods = 3 EURO
- Postage = 3 EURO
- Assessment basis = 6 EURO ( value of goods + Postage ) - the same as before July 1
- VAT = 20% ( charged on a customs basis of 6 EURO = 1,20 EURO
- Import tariff = customs duty ( as I wrote earlier, they had to establish that the minimum import duty cannot be lower than: eg. 5 EURO ) = 5 EURO
- Total cost of the imported cell phone case = 12,20 EURO
So...Everything is correct for now 8|

I am convinced that a 5 EURO customs duty is set for some range of prices for imported goods - for example, from 1 to 10 (20) EURO.
And above this value there are further thresholds.
I believe this is to limit (discourage) individual imports. This way it will be easier for them to control the influx of goods from China.
I don't like talks about politics on this forum, but duties and taxes are part of politics - I don't know if you know, but there is an "economic war" with China - for years ...
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Postby Rad_Schuhart » Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:49 pm

abramsky wrote:It's easy Rad. And as i know - nothing new here:
- Value of goods = 3 EURO
- Postage = 3 EURO
- Assessment basis = 6 EURO ( value of goods + Postage ) - the same as before July 1
- VAT = 20% ( charged on a customs basis of 6 EURO = 1,20 EURO
- Import tariff = customs duty ( as I wrote earlier, they had to establish that the minimum import duty cannot be lower than: eg. 5 EURO ) = 5 EURO
- Total cost of the imported cell phone case = 12,20 EURO
So...Everything is correct for now 8|

I am convinced that a 5 EURO customs duty is set for some range of prices for imported goods - for example, from 1 to 10 (20) EURO.
And above this value there are further thresholds.
I believe this is to limit (discourage) individual imports. This way it will be easier for them to control the influx of goods from China.
I don't like talks about politics on this forum, but duties and taxes are part of politics - I don't know if you know, but there is an "economic war" with China - for years ...


Yep, that image was pretty clear to me, but still:
Why do the post charge me a VAT, if I am paying it now in aliexpress?
Why if I already paid the VAT not only once, but twice, they charge me another extra 5 euros for import tariff?

That is sick.

For sure they will discourage the individual imports, but that is the thing, what we do now? I have a hobbyshop nearby: For the same servos I buy for 60 cents, they charge me 18 euros. Now, the shop, who of course buys in china, is going to have to pay more and will rise the prices too. So nope, no alternative it seems. And I am now just talking about the hobby, but I buy everything but food in aliexpress, so this causes a serious issue to me.
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Postby jhamm » Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:57 pm

According to a communication from 2016, the European Commission is assuming 150 million parcels that are imported into the EU every year without VAT.
She not only sees the tax exemption system as susceptible to massive fraud and abuse, but also cites considerable distortions of competition to the detriment of companies in the EU as the reason for the pending change.
There is no such exemption limit for traders based in the EU. Regardless of the price, you have to pay the corresponding VAT on goods sold. This puts them at a disadvantage compared to their competitors from third countries and in view of the exemption limit that still applies to them.
In addition, the European Commission points out that import documents for high-quality goods such as smartphones would often contain too low values ​​or incorrect descriptions of goods in order to qualify for VAT exemption.


The only new thing is that now all goods have to be checked at customs.
For goods over € 150, customs duties are added to the import sales tax.
In Brussels the gentlemen are not stupid, it was just a matter of time.
Whining won't change that.
Time for a second job ...
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Postby abramsky » Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:19 pm

Rad_Schuhart wrote:Yep, that image was pretty clear to me, but still:
Why do the post charge me a VAT, if I am paying it now in aliexpress?
...
That is sick.


Because the Chinese seller probably is not registered with the European IOSS system (VAT taxpayer) in the EU and did not include the (required for each package) VAT code on the customs declaration / bill of lading (AWB). If you paid VAT during the purchase - try and send screenshots of the transaction to the customs office (in Austria - am I right?) And thus try to recover VAT. But without the confirmation code for registering the seller as a VAT taxpayer in the EU (IOSS system) your chances are slim.
Anyway, VAT shouldn't be your biggest problem in this case ... it's only 1.20. And you will not get back the 5 EURO customs duty anyway. This fee is independent of the new VAT regulations.

Rad_Schuhart wrote:Why if I already paid the VAT not only once, but twice, they charge me another extra 5 euros for import tariff?

Import tariff's it's not the same as VAT... VAT it's a TAX tax charged on goods and services , Import tarriff it's a is the customs duty (charged on the import of goods).

Rad_Schuhart wrote:For sure they will discourage the individual imports, but that is the thing, what we do now? I have a hobbyshop nearby: For the same servos I buy for 60 cents, they charge me 18 euros. Now, the shop, who of course buys in china, is going to have to pay more and will rise the prices too. So nope, no alternative it seems. And I am now just talking about the hobby, but I buy everything but food in aliexpress, so this causes a serious issue to me.


Yup. But try to think about it in a different way: I quote you: "but I buy everything but food in aliexpress" ... In this way, we only help the clever and low-priced Chinese to get rich. It's nice to buy cheap, but shipping from China to Europe = 0 (1-2) EURO? Really? I have been selling abroad for years and there is no way I can afford to send anything to a customer in France, UK, US or Canada for free or below cost. It is economically impossible. Only China can afford it ... I am as disappointed as you are that the era of cheap shopping in China is ending, but if it were to continue - in a few years it would not be profitable to produce anything in Europe - we would become one huge importer dependent on China. I wonder how many of us would have any job then ...
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Postby jarndice » Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:03 pm

jhamm wrote:According to a communication from 2016, the European Commission is assuming 150 million parcels that are imported into the EU every year without VAT.
She not only sees the tax exemption system as susceptible to massive fraud and abuse, but also cites considerable distortions of competition to the detriment of companies in the EU as the reason for the pending change.
There is no such exemption limit for traders based in the EU. Regardless of the price, you have to pay the corresponding VAT on goods sold. This puts them at a disadvantage compared to their competitors from third countries and in view of the exemption limit that still applies to them.
In addition, the European Commission points out that import documents for high-quality goods such as smartphones would often contain too low values ​​or incorrect descriptions of goods in order to qualify for VAT exemption.


The only new thing is that now all goods have to be checked at customs.
For goods over € 150, customs duties are added to the import sales tax.
In Brussels the gentlemen are not stupid, it was just a matter of time.
Whining won't change that.
Time for a second job ...

The 27 member countries in the EU in their arrogance appear to presuppose that the EU and it's Taxation system is universally fair and acceptable,
Well someone needs to tell the EU that many of the other 173 countries in the UN hold a different view and some of those country's believe that free trade is the way forward for the marketplace and that taxing everything imported no matter what its initial value at a rate that is patently obviously a restrictive practice should be outlawed.
99% of all industry anywhere in the World started off as a tiny one man operation and by operating free of punitive taxation because of the small size of the company grew into an operation where they could employ people and contribute to the tax pool BUT this short sighted restrictive practice is just going to kill small businesses.
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Postby Tiger6 » Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:26 pm

I think you'll find that sales tax / VAT is far more universal than just 27 EU countries:
https://merchantmachine.co.uk/sales-tax-vat/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-add ... th_VAT.svg

You should not confuse 'Free Trade' with VAT/sales tax - they are not the same thing.

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Postby jarndice » Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:11 am

Tiger6 wrote:I think you'll find that sales tax / VAT is far more universal than just 27 EU countries:
https://merchantmachine.co.uk/sales-tax-vat/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-add ... th_VAT.svg

You should not confuse 'Free Trade' with VAT/sales tax - they are not the same thing.

Indeed but when I am dealing with a country that imposes such restrictions on its citizens I can tell the dealer that I am not eligible and VAT is then removed,
The EU appears to be trying to make it universal even though a customer is outside of the EU's jurisdiction.
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Postby jhamm » Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:00 am

Did you know ?
News from July 1, 2021, 6:19 p.m.
130 countries agree on a global minimum tax
Globally active corporations have to adjust to stricter taxation.
130 countries agreed on a comprehensive tax reform on Thursday. Among other things,
this provides for companies worldwide to be taxed at a minimum rate of 15 percent.


What do you think, who pays this 15% in the end?
I think it's the same as always, we - the consumers - pay for it.
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Postby Kaczor » Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:14 am

Yes, everyone worries that cheap Chinese crap won't be so cheap anymore but the european welfare states won't finance itself without tax revenues. ;)
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Postby jhamm » Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:57 am

Kaczor wrote:Yes, everyone worries that cheap Chinese crap won't be so cheap anymore but the european welfare states won't finance itself without tax revenues. ;)


that's the way it is
And after the Covid pandemic it will continue - someone has to pay for it ...
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Postby Tiger6 » Tue Jul 06, 2021 9:07 am

jarndice wrote:The EU appears to be trying to make it universal even though a customer is outside of the EU's jurisdiction.


If you buy something in Europe, you will not pay Europe's VAT, you pay the UK rate. The UK Govt at the start of the year forced European retailers wishing to sell into the UK to register for UK VAT, and collect it at the point of sale (unless the amount is over the import duty threshold, in which case the whole lot + handling fee is collected from you at the point of delivery).

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Postby r32 » Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:05 pm

I hope you can see this from a less binary decision either you’re in the hobby or you’re out, it’s painful to own less tanks or save longer, but when there’s a will there’s a way.

I started the hobby not being able to afford a modern tank (the only one was Tamiya’s 2A6) to having three currently, ten years down the road. Right place and right time.

Also, if you switch hobbies, unless it’s gardening, you’re likely going to come up with taxation if it involves purchasing from overseas.

So just pace yourself and take it easy…

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