Are 3D models really Scratch Built.

Feel free to discuss anything and everything to do with tanking here!

Postby lady.tigger » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:31 pm

Hi, Am I about to stir up a Hornets Nest, probably yes, healthy banter hurt's know one, are 3D Models in the strict sence of the word Scratch Built, I do like what has been done on 3D printers,some really fantastic models out there, and sometimes I wish I had one, it would make my life simpler, Emm I have my views, but what are yours. :S :wave: :thumbdown: :thumbup:

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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:41 pm

If one does the design then prints that off, I'd say it very much is scratch built, especially as 3D Printing is still a form of manufacturing. But, that is if someone wrote their own files. Otherwise it's copying, a bit like making a mould of someone else's scratch built part and copying it in cast resin.

But that's just my opinion.
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Postby tomhugill » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:52 pm

I think even using other people's designs, there's an art to 3d printing successfully which shouldn't be overlooked.


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Postby midlife306 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:59 pm

Hmm, interesting...
I agree it’s somewhat of a new scenario.
The original designer is the scratch builder for sure, all the appreciation has to go to them
The odd bit is when the models become available, if you have a printer you can have a go yourself, but you may not like the orientation of the parts or you want to change the scale, or the parts don’t fit your printer etc etc. I got a 1/16 model of a T35-A from Thingiverse, I printed it & I was so impressed I decided to print one in 1/6 for a laugh.
The beauty is that the scratch build of the designer isn’t a one off like all other scratch builds, it’s just the beginning
Thanks to all the design hero’s out there xxx
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Wayne


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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:00 pm

tomhugill wrote:I think even using other people's designs, there's an art to 3d printing successfully which shouldn't be overlooked.

I guess you could say that it's like taking measurements with someone else's help.
And on that note, yes then, 3D Printing your own parts is like scratch building. Simply buying the parts already made is just like doing a kit.
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Postby General Jumbo01 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:18 pm

Surely 3D printing is just another tool, another skill we can learn to use. It probably takes longer to master its use than a modelling knife - just wish l had one. Until then l rely on those who do have one and know how to use theirs to produce little marvels for me, and very thankful to them l am!

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Postby tomhugill » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:23 pm

Wardog wrote:No,if you bought a model from a retailer in a box,or down load from a pc to your printer its the same.
If you down load certain parts for a build maybe.
From drawing to measure to card to plastic,metal to glue etc.thats scratch build the old way.


So is the person that uses a CNC miller to make parts isn't a scratch builder either? Are the tools we use relevant?

You're completely disregarding the manufacturing stage of the parts in saying a kit is the same as using a 3rd party design.


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Postby midlife306 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:23 pm

Hehe, a printer is just a tool, dependant on your skill with that tool will greatly impact the finished product.
Anyone is welcome to come round to mine & have a go with no help from me, don’t expect to be going home with anything recognisable though lol
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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:29 pm

Wardog wrote:No,if you bought a model from a retailer in a box,or down load from a pc to your printer its the same.
If you down load certain parts for a build maybe.
From drawing to measure to card to plastic,metal to glue etc.thats scratch build the old way.

I'm guessing your thinking is along the lines that having blue prints and a 35th scale model to help copy and make your own parts out of bits of material is scratch building, and it is. No matter what manufacturing machines you may have available to help make your life easier and produce the item.
But, when Wayne printed the bombs for me, he didn't just click print. He had to modify the files, re scale the item, change its printing process to cater for the bigger size, basically, re writing the program to suit the requirements. And used a machine he had available to produce the item.
That is something most people don't take into consideration with people printing parts, there is more involved than just pressing print.
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Postby lady.tigger » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:36 pm

Wayne and other 3D guys out there, I am in no way degradeing anyones knowledge or the tools they use, far from it, it was something that sprang to mind today, and as I said, it was a hornet's nest, and I gave it a kick, I am not clever enough to use a printer, so I stick to the lath and saw.

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Postby lmcq11 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:41 pm

I think that if you design 3D printed parts, then you are a designer of 3D parts. If you print them, then you are also a printer and the quality and prices are differentiators. If you use them as they are produced/received and just follow instructions, then you are a kit builder. If you use them as part of a broader build with components from many sources, then you are a builder or a scratch builder depending on whether the base of the model is industry, basic kit or out of nothing.

But i also find that bringing a 3D printed part up to a high standard of modelling usually requires scratch building level skills to make them look good, refined, smooth and polished. The material used is often difficult to work with. Not everything should be 3D printed. Scratch building is also about selecting the right material to produce a part.

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Postby midlife306 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:46 pm

Hehe, doesn’t bother me what anyone thinks, My modelling skills are somewhat retarded, but I can join the club with a printer & create wonderful things... Thanks to the designers

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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:46 pm

As Wayne said, the original designer is technically the scratch builder, but it's not a case of one size fits all.
All the things we could copy and make ourselves for our tanks out of plasticard, metal etc, was already designed many years ago and manufactured full size.
We just alter its size before we make them.
I think producing something from just raw materials is scratch building/producing.
Although my feelings towards 3D scanning then printing isn't in the same category, there is no real skills needed.
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Postby tomhugill » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:53 pm

Maybe we need more pigeon holes for our work? Or just enjoy the builds ;)Image

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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:02 pm

tomhugill wrote:Maybe we need more pigeon holes for our work? Or just enjoy the builds ;)Image

Basically, Tamiya scratch builds the parts, we just kit bash them.

Wayne, you can hold your head high, you are officially a scratch builder :thumbup:
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Postby midlife306 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:07 pm

Wardog wrote:
midlife306 wrote:Hehe, doesn’t bother me what anyone thinks, My modelling skills are somewhat retarded, but I can join the club with a printer & create wonderful things... Thanks to the designers

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It should matter,but OK .but think the truck is great (the end result is great)


There’s a difference between should matter & not bothered lol
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Wayne


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Postby lady.tigger » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:17 pm

Sorry guy's, I am good at lighting the touch paper and running away, and at present I am Meek Meek Road Runner. Keep up the good work Wayne, and other 3D ers.

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Postby Eastern Front » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:01 pm

Ok,

My 2.23423473 cents:

1. If you buy a kit, build it as the kit directs you, paint it what ever suits your fancy, then you are a kit builder.

2. If you buy a kit then modify it, just enough to set it apart from another model of the same kit (like customizing a King Tiger to match a real field unit) then you are basically kit bashing.

3. If you buy a model and alter it significantly, even if it looks like the kit ( I reference BarryC 's M1A2) then you are definitely scratch building.

If you buy a pre-printed model (3D printed) and assemble it, see rule 1

If you buy parts from a 3D printer and basically glue them on your tank, see rule 2

If you design a model via some CAD based program, print it then assemble it see rule 3

That should cover everything

Cheers!
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Postby Max-U52 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:27 pm

If you build it from nothing, and it doesn't come in a kit, then it's scratch-built. I don't care if you use a 3D printer or a CNC milling machine or any other tool to make the parts, if it didn't come in a kit you built it from scratch. Seems pretty simple to me.
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Postby ronnie42 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:45 pm

Suppose Max is spot on. If YOU write a program for the machine and the machine makes part thats fine. Now who is going to be the first to scratch build a 1/16 hetzer. As for the stamped out parts from the man in germany , they can't be classed as scratch built. He has done all the hard work setting out the cuts.

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