Designing a tank as a pet project.

Feel free to discuss anything and everything to do with tanking here!

Postby Plagerreap » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:51 am

So I got my hands on an iPad with an Apple Pencil, as well as being granted independent study in my art/graphic design class. As independent study implies, I have to do my own projects, so I started drawing and other boring things, till I stumbled upon a 3D Modeling program. I've spent the last month fiddling around with it, getting used to the controls etc. Made a truck or two, then came across an idea while staring at my rc tanks sitting on the shelf. I'm going to design my own, completely from scratch, and should by budget allow it, print it off and build it. However, if I do it will probably be like a 1/10 to 1/5 scale so I can go the whole 9 yards. -I'll elaborate later.
Right now the project is in its most infant stage, literally on the basic hull design, but the progress will be daily, detailing etc. I plan to make a 3D model of it just for representational purposes, then after that I'll go back through, split the parts up, and configure them so they can be printed off (off, up? what is the term for 3D printing :haha: ) Here's a display of the hull in its current form, I'll be working on it the rest of the week, adding vents, hatches, etc.

What I've chosen as features I want
-Hydropneumatic Suspension (because all of the gun depression)
-Design that can easily have an adaptation kid designed for and put on (Like the SEP kits, or the Revolution upgrade the Leopard 2's are getting)
-Heavy armor
-Visual beauty as well as functional beauty
-High mobility
(as for rc wants)
-Custom gear box that will switch between high gear (for speed) and a low gear (to climb)
-Functional hydropneumatic suspension (not sure how I'll make it work, but I'll find a way)

-Tanks may be my hobby, but I take my hobbies seriously.
Attachments
Type 20 Hull (A).jpg
Type 20 Hull (A).jpg (62.97 KiB) Viewed 486 times
Type 20 (Side).jpg
Going for low profile
Type 20 (Side).jpg (27.61 KiB) Viewed 486 times
Type 20 (Front).jpg
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:11 pm

I applaud your required specs, or Features desiderata. :) but when you say this has to be 'low profile', yours is borderline subterranean 8O :D
I suppose it would follow the (Turretless) design philosophy behind Sweden's Strv 103: ...the one that led to a big rethink on what constitutes a "Tank'. ..i.e. does a Tank have a turret by definition? If so all turretless armoured vehicles cannot be called tanks; but only 'Tank Hunters, assault vehicles, tracked artillery etc..," Or, does the Strv and the like redefine 'Tank' ? :think:
Stridsvagn.103.jpg
Swedish Strv. 103
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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:44 pm

I too applaud you Mr Plagerreap :clap:

Mr 43rd, the first "tanks" that the name came from didn't have turrets, and they had a choice of machine guns or artillery guns, therefore, technically, on that basis, surely any tracked armoured fighting vehicle with guns of some form are tanks :think:

Another thought to add, some of the earliest designs of tanks had wheels, they struggled in the mud, and caterpillar/tank tracks were considered more like a permanent matting/channel on the wheeled vehicle. Which gives the impression tanks were still considered wheeled vehicles.

With these two things in mind, one would think the original tank designers would consider any form of armour with guns and wheels a tank, with or without a turret or tracks. And any tank that wasn't boxed shaped (water tank shaped where the code name originally came from), isn't technically a "tank"

Wonder if we need a new name for modern day turret tanks :think:
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Postby General Jumbo01 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:12 pm

You did say that you've only designed the hull so far so l assumed a turret will follow!

If you follow recent fighting vehicle developments the new guided missile/shell system that doesn't require line of sight firing will probably make turrets redundant. You just require a fast and maneuverable, well protected firing vehicle, not unlike an armoured infantry carrier in appearance with a pop up firing mechanism. Not so macho maybe but far more deadly than the traditional tank.

Nevertheless, whatever you come up with, enjoy!


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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:14 pm

Son of a gun-ner wrote:I too applaud you Mr Plagerreap :clap:

Mr 43rd, the first "tanks" that the name came from didn't have turrets, and they had a choice of machine guns or artillery guns, therefore, technically, on that basis, surely any tracked armoured fighting vehicle with guns of some form are tanks :think:

Another thought to add, some of the earliest designs of tanks had wheels, they struggled in the mud, and caterpillar/tank tracks were considered more like a permanent matting/channel on the wheeled vehicle. Which gives the impression tanks were still considered wheeled vehicles.

With these two things in mind, one would think the original tank designers would consider any form of armour with guns and wheels a tank, with or without a turret or tracks. And any tank that wasn't boxed shaped (water tank shaped where the code name originally came from), isn't technically a "tank"

Wonder if we need a new name for modern day turret tanks :think:


The first 'Tanks' actually had sponsons, which have a swivelling function not dissimilar to that of the later Turreted models. The Renault FT introduced the first actual turret. Yes, dear old Mick, I know all that.
But.....I wasn't the one to query the distinction between AFVs and Tanks, as discussions on that topic have been around for decades. No, I merely alluded to it, old chap. :D
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:20 pm

As an addendum, Mick, this Bunker cum Pillbox has a Panther Turret. Does that make it a 'Tank?' :D
Panther pill box.jpg
Panther Pillbox
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Postby Plagerreap » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:32 pm

I have noticed a lot of conversation about my tank lacking a turret, well, that's because at the current moment I haven't designed one. Though the one I have in mind will probably be something along the lines of a K2 Black Panther and a Type 10 or something like that. The hydropneumatic suspension was heavily inspired upon the STRV 103's though, but will be taken a step farther than just tipping forward and back.

With that said, all I got done today was hull detailing. Will probably be working on the suspension tomorrow.
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T20 Hull 2.jpg
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T20 Hull 1.jpg
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T20 Hull.jpg
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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:38 am

Sorry Mr Plagerreap, especially as you have now indicated you are having a turret :D
Well, I for one will be watching your progress with great interest :thumbup:

43rdRecceReg wrote:As an addendum, Mick, this Bunker cum Pillbox has a Panther Turret. Does that make it a 'Tank?' :D
Panther pill box.jpg

Well Mr Smarty Underpants, a pill box/gun emplacement;
noun
1.
a structure on or in which something is firmly placed.
"a machine bolted to a concrete emplacement"
So not a tank :P
Surely the name tank was given to a "wheeled" (with or without tracks) vehicle before it received a turret. One can hardly compare a sponson to a turret. And some later "tanks" had both.
Dear older chap :P you did end your eluding with a :think: like you were still pondering :D
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:12 pm

Son of a gun-ner wrote:Sorry Mr Plagerreap, especially as you have now indicated you are having a turret :D
Well, I for one will be watching your progress with great interest :thumbup:

43rdRecceReg wrote:As an addendum, Mick, this Bunker cum Pillbox has a Panther Turret. Does that make it a 'Tank?' :D
Panther pill box.jpg

Well Mr Smarty Underpants, a pill box/gun emplacement;
noun
1.
a structure on or in which something is firmly placed.
"a machine bolted to a concrete emplacement"
So not a tank
Surely the name tank was given to a "wheeled" (with or without tracks) vehicle before it received a turret. One can hardly compare a sponson to a turret. And some later "tanks" had both.
Dear older chap you did end your eluding with a :problem: like you were still pondering
.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Not sure why the quote from Mick- above the dotted line- appears to be part of my comments below the line. It should have appeared in a yellow framed highlight. :eh:
Ach, well...ours is not to reason why.
We will look forward to seeing your design leap of the virtual drawing board, and into some sheets of styrene, P . :thumbup:
Mick, history indicates that the term 'Tank' (Initially 'Water Tank") was coined to keep the existence of British tracked fighting vehicles secret from the Germans, and had no connection with wheeled vehicles in general nor with the presence of a Turret or not. :|
I alluded to the decades-old discussion on what constitutes a 'Tank'. Clearly, the Germans saw a distinction, and that's why Turreted AFVs (Tiger, Panther, PzIV )etc.,are dubbed 'Panzerkampfwagen' where variants without turrets (or Tourette's Syndrome :lolno: ) have tags like 'StuG IV,' 'Panzerjager,' and so on. Many argue that the Swedish low profile machine is not a 'Tank'. I'm not one of them as I have, frankly, better things to do. :lolno:
A 'sponson' is an armoured swivelling gun-platform; usually fitted to the side of a ship. A Turret is also an armoured swivelling gun- platform, and the very first one was fitted to the top of a ship The USS Monitor, I believe, in 1861) In principle, though, they both serve a similar purpose.
The very first British prototype, 'Little Willie" (no smut please...) was planned to have a rotating turret on top, in fact; but it was found to give the machine too high a profile in the landscape, and made the (then) AFV top heavy.
Now back to your interesting project, Mr P. :D
Last edited by 43rdRecceReg on Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:38 pm

Well, we seem to agree on lots of things, the "water tank" just so happened to have wheels, although with tracks.
As I'm focusing on origins, the second WW German names went with what they saw them as much later. And helped towards the confusion ;)
For what it's worth, I see the Swedish self propelled gun as a tank ;) :D
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Postby Max-U52 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:52 pm

Let me clear this up for you guys. Whether or not it's a tank depends on how it's intended to be used. A tank is used in support of Infantry. A Hellcat (for example) does not support infantry, it hunts tanks, and therefore it is not a tank, but a tank destroyer.

You Lads play nice now, we don't want anybody to start cryin'. @) @) :haha:
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Postby 43rdRecceReg » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:44 pm

Max-U52 wrote:Let me clear this up for you guys. Whether or not it's a tank depends on how it's intended to be used. A tank is used in support of Infantry. A Hellcat (for example) does not support infantry, it hunts tanks, and therefore it is not a tank, but a tank destroyer.

You Lads play nice now, we don't want anybody to start cryin'. @) @) :haha:


:D This is all part of the traditional 'cut 'n' thrust' our worthy Forum engenders, Gary. ;)
Yes, I agree that form, function, and role have evolved over the years so that specialised AFVs have emerged to keep pace with modern combat requirements. Ironically, the Germans based their armoured 'blitz' tactics on principles formulated by the Brits (Col. John Fuller especially); principles sadly ignored by the British General staff. This is where the initial 'Infantry support' role switched to the role of Infantry supporting an armoured thrust, mainly in the German army. The Germans also took the initiative in equipping for Tank on Tank encounters (Pz 111), as well as Infantry support (Pz IV...odd though that now seems with hindsight :) ).
Some modern, tracked, troop carrying AFVs have turrets, but are not deemed to be tanks. That's how far warfare has evolved. Tank or not, the threat is from the Air these days, as well as from the handheld descendants of the Panzerfaust..whether wire-guided, or not. :|
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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:54 pm

What depicts a tank :think:

Well, NASA sent a spaceship to Saturn called Juno. NASA refers to it as an armoured tank.

Just saying. . . . .
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Postby General Jumbo01 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:00 pm

My water tank doesn't have tracks or wheels, just sits in the loft.

During WW2 a tank destroyer didn't have a turret - it was a term used for tracked vehicles with a hull mounted cannon, such as a SU85 or Jagdpanther. Maybe things have changed??

This thread is going up its own arse at a rapid rate of knots. We should be doing something useful, like building models or shopping for Xmas booze.

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Postby jackalope » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:10 pm

No tracks on a fish tank either. ;)

Now come on, I KNOW y'all know where the name "tank" comes from. Especially our UK friends.
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Postby Plagerreap » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:55 am

Began work on a turret instead of suspension, didn't feel like making all those road wheels and tracks links yet.
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Type 20 Turret.jpg
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Postby Son of a gun-ner » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:49 am

Plagerreap wrote:Began work on a turret instead of suspension, didn't feel like making all those road wheels and tracks links yet.

Good choice, after all, one has to know the total mass that the running gear is supporting ;)
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Postby Plagerreap » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:23 pm

I’ll be using exerts from my Journal today because I am feeling exceedingly lazy.

Designed the Mk 1 of the remote turret. The turret was supposed to be more heavily armed for anti-infantry purposes than most any remote turrets used on modern MBT’s. It features a 20mm autocannon that uses high explosive shells, duals as an anti infantry device as well as short range anti aircraft. Attached to the side of this is a grenade launcher modified to be remotely used. Sits on a separate rotation scheme than the turret, so that it can move semi-freely and independent of the gun turret. The grenade munition box was initially put at the base of the turret to prevent the autocannon from being knocked out should it be struck and cause the grenades to detonate. Issues arose from this. Will explain later.
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Grenade turret Mk2. The placement of the grenade box in the mark one created many issues. 1; limited traverse, the turret could not freely rotate 360 degrees without wrapping and tangling the feed of grenades. 2; should be box be hit multiple things could go wrong.
A; the turret could still be knocked out. B; the engine could be knocked out if the turret faced forward.
So I relocated the grenade box to the back of the remote turret. The box will feature as many countermeasures as possible to prevent detonation prematurely.
Thinking about cutting it out entirely due to the chance of a detonation severely injuring countermeasure systems and other parts.
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Then the lovely addition of the “Silent Hunter” system. Looking for more fun toys @)
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Postby Woz » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:17 pm

General Jumbo01 wrote:My water tank doesn't have tracks or wheels, just sits in the loft.

During WW2 a tank destroyer didn't have a turret - it was a term used for tracked vehicles with a hull mounted cannon, such as a SU85 or Jagdpanther. Maybe things have changed??


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The term Tank Destroyer was applied to a vehicle that was designed (and main function was) to combat enemy tanks.

The M10 and M36 were both WWII Tank Destroyers that had turrets.
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Postby Plagerreap » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:23 pm

As “Final edit” as it’s likely to get.
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