Tigers in the Mud

[doc larsson]

Just finished reading Otto carius' book titled above !!

A very intersting insight into the Wermacht tankers exploit in WW2. What I would say is that he has a very low opinion of US/British tankers and their materiel and a high one of the Soviets. He is very anti-bolshevik but admired the russian fighting spirit. He borders on the facist, however i do not believe he was a nazi ! A couple of things that he stated in the book regarding traitors to the german cause. He mentions the heavy water plant being destroyed at Telemark but this was done by Norwegian patriots and not pro-allied german conspirators. He also states the same about plants wher the V-weapons were being made but again the allies were probably advised by people brought in by the germans to work there and somehow i can't believe these workers were german or pro german having being made to work there !!

All in all a very good read written by a very good and dedicated soldier.

[edpanzer]

Low opinion OK......but we won

[jackalope]

Low opinion? Damn still sour grapes after all these years!

[PainlessWolf]

Jack,
You want Sour Grapes, try talking to anyone on a BP Forum about the Civil War or as any South'ner is likely to call it, "The War of Northern Aggression". *chuckles* Doc, I read 'Tigers in the Mud' and found it very readable as well. You cannot blame Carius for his patriotism even if it was for a lost and evil cause. He did some amazing things in command of his Tiger. ...and of course he would have more respect for the Soviets. They came a lot closer to killing him then the Western Allies did.
regards,
Painless

[edpanzer]

My grandfather was one of those tankers he had a low opinion of.. But Herr carius was in a tiger its easy to be arrogant I admire my grandfather more for facing tigers in a Sherman that took guts.

[billpe]

I think it's been taken out of context. What he says in the book is about US tankers and how if they saw a German tank they'd retreat, get on the radio and get the airforce to come and bomb said tank. All in all quite wise.

[jackalope]

I think it's been taken out of context. What he says in the book is about US tankers and how if they saw a German tank they'd retreat, get on the radio and get the airforce to come and bomb said tank. All in all quite wise.

Well no shit! It's not like a Sherman could anything to a Tiger! Well not unless Brad Pitt is the commander that is. Which also leads back to the cocky attitude of the Tiger crews, they knew they couldn't be touched.

[doc larsson]

As Bilpe says, the allies were smart to not go looking to get killed or wounded ! the russkies on the other hand had no qualms about sending men and materiel into harms way. I have nothing against carius being patriotic but he does defame somewhat graf/von stauffeberg et al of not being proper 'soldiers'. as for my comment on him being facist maybe i should have put more emphasis on his dislike of bolshevism. Bear in mind he wasn't always in a Tiger, but once in there he knew how to employ it well. As for his thoughts on the western allies, he like many germans thought that once over the rhine we would hook up with the germans and all head east ! Wrong ! What happened to germany after the war was similar to the treaty of versailles in ww1 but not as hard hitting. Can't help but think that what is happening th o Greece in the EU atm !

as for carius a great leader and tanker.

RIP Otto.

[billpe]

There was nothing like Versailles in West Germany after the war. It was the complete opposite. Reparations were lenient and industry promoted by Britain and the US with the Marshal plan. Krupp et all were allowed to go free and keep people in work and create a bastion against the Soviet bloc. The Bunderswere was quickly established and put mostly in control with men like Carius who were not active Nazis but were in the Luftwaffe, Kreigsmarine and Wermacht. I never got the impression that Carius was a Nazi or a sympathizer but just a product of his time. The books by Von Luck and Steinhoff explain this a little clearer as they both were older and explore what it was like to be a German in the 30's and how things got the way they did. Remember Carius was teenager when he first got into a Panzer 38t.

Greece is completely different. They have an ineffective tax system - basically no organised taxation method and a terribly corrupt Government system. They faked the figures with their EU entry and then borrowed hundreds of billions of Euros off Germany then got caught in a global recession and had to borrow more. Now Germany wants Greece to make a plan to give it back. It's a bit like lending your freind a couple of grand, lying how you'll pay it back then saying you won't pay it back because you don't want too.

[billpe]

I don't think Iraq is in the same boat.